It might take me some time to get used to the look of the camera!

However I have just looked at the RED site. At first I thought the RED gun cage looked like a typical attept and shoulder mounting a small camera. But on closer inspection it looks as though that could be a really innovative way of holding the camera. Especially if the pivot point above that circle thing (that I assume you put your arm through) is smooth.

I think I'd be worried about Homeland security... that thing looks like a futuristic rocket launcher!

I think I'd be worried about Homeland security... that thing looks like a futuristic rocket launcher!

We should start a pool now to see when the first airport closure occurs because some guy with his RED was running through a terminal.

It looks to me that one's hand fits between the cage and the inner module. It's a fairly small unit. One hander kind of thing. That's just my take from the RED site images though.

That's no camera......IT'S A SPACE STATION

I don't like the looks at all. I think the Arri 235 is the perfect combination of aesthetics and function. It's small, lightweight, looks pretty cool, and is built to be cheap. Great form factor, good simple design, great price.

But whatever: $17,500 for 4k Super 35? That's pretty mind blowing.

However, I'd be MUCH MUCH more impressed with a less ornate body and a lower price tag due to less complex milling (also something more standard would work with more equipment.)

I want my footage to look good. I don't care how the camera looks.

I'm not sure how the price can get any lower for a 4K camera.

The question is never "what does it cost" but rather "what is it worth."

That's no camera......IT'S A SPACE STATION

floating against the creepy black background thats exactly what i thought! I love the way it looks. expecially with the cage.

The price is amazing; I agree. If the camera can accept 15mm rods, normal accessories, etc. then I'll be just wowed.

4k and small enough to put on a Glidecam 4000? That's just insane. But I think it looks silly, especially the cages. Nevertheless, wow...

That's no camera......IT'S A SPACE STATION
An honest LOL

If it breaks, do you gotta send it to Orange County Choppers?

If it breaks, do you gotta send it to Orange County Choppers?

I ordered one--my only concern about the look is that in documentary shooting, I like to be the proverbial fly on the wall---The camera might just throw my subjects slightly off game.

I liked the 3d model on the site, but the grey real one...but then again its just a prototype...

The various cages are cool...The one looks like darth vaders space ship, and the other one with 3 handles, Luke skywalkers space ship.

if you are shooting a documentary, suppose you dont need a cage, just put it on a tripod, and it wont look to spacy...the lens covers up the small camera, and its form is not outlandish.

it beats every camera out there design wise, though I like canons black design with curves. (the normal vari cam type camera are butt ugly)

peace

dalen

It looks like an industrial design student went crazy and had no idea where to stop.

Whatever. Can’t wait to see the footage.

Yes, it is a bit OTT, but then I suppose it is what we should have expected from Oakley, so not really a surprise. I loved Walter Graffs comment on another site that it let him know what happened to the Terminator arm at the end of the film!

I do think they need to tone down the design. At the moment it looks more like a toy. And if this thing is going to aim to be all things for all people the RED team need to remember that not all filmmakers (particularly documentary makers) want something that stands out. Although I suppose having said that that with a big ass 35mm lens on the front it might be hard to hide!

(particularly documentary makers) want something that stands out. Although I suppose having said that that with a big ass 35mm lens on the front it might be hard to hide!

i dont think documentary makers will use the cage...and its a small camera, not all that strange by itself, and the lens is the main focus.

If anything it will be, "wheres the camera".

If i was in a documentary I would be scared of the big odd looking varicam in my face...

peace

dalen

what makes me laugh and cry at the same time is the insane number of screws the various parts have - not cuz they are necessary, but only to make it look more outlandish. i completely agree with Matthew Wauhkonen - too ornamental, not really form follows function. sunglasses, snowboard caps and goggles, watches (i love the medusa jim) are fashion objects - a 20k camera is not.

and don't be fooled by the renderings - i doubt the camera will have this surface finnish as milling such complex shapes would be way too expensive and magnesium castings look like this - okay you can pollish the parts (expensive) and then fear all the time your camera gets a scratch

http://www.digitalreview.ca/cams/pics/NikonD2Xconstruction.jpg

what makes me laugh and cry at the same time is the insane number of screws the various parts have - not cuz they are necessary, but only to make it look more outlandish. i completely agree with Matthew Wauhkonen - too ornamental, not really form follows function. sunglasses, snowboard caps and gogles, watches (i love the medusa jim) are fashion objects - a 20k camera is not.http://www.digitalreview.ca/cams/pics/NikonD2Xconstruction.jpg

A 20k camera thats not ugly...whats wrong with that?
The accessories are actually more useful, and the weight and size, not going to break shoulder...not sure what the problem is...

it does everything and more then 50k+ cameras, and its not ugly in your face elephant size varicam. (though elphants look better than cameras :-)

it will match the metal tower macs...

peace

dalen

Jim has given us an opportunity to buy a camera body for under 20k that beats bascially anything you can get for above 50k and it has style.

He said he built it for himself even if noone else buys it. (in an interview, link somewhere on the board in the Red forum)

So whats the deal about the looks? Its light weight, more than practical...your not going to use the cage necessarily at a documentary, some nice accessories...have we been that brainwashed by grey dingy 50k+ boxes?

Its his dream, let him enjoy the design he wants...in the meantime, use it for the deal of a camera it is, and thank God its at least not an eye sore.

If the design is the biggest issue, then there really isnt an issue...maybe someone will come up with something better...

peace
dalen

The concept is modular, but for the economics to work they have to sell the camera to people who would buy 1/2" & 2/3" cameras. the market for 35mm sized sensors isn't large enough to keep the costs down. By going for the cross format design they're doing what Eclair did with one version of the CM3, you could shoot both 16mm & 35mm. So, the buyer has this image of being able to shoot 4k, but in fact they never will.

The problem is that with this technology you will be able to/can buy a more suitable camera for less money for shooting docs & news. Also with news you have to fit in with the workflow of the news organisation.

I can see the cage being useful for some stuff, but not for other things. On documentaries, the camera size isn't usually a factor, the cost of the camera is; because the less the cost of hiring/buying the camera the more time you can spent shooting. People ignore you after a while, so the camera size is an argument that doesn't really hold water and it also depends on the type of documentary you're shooting.

For "Planet Earth" you'd want Varicams and HDW 750 type cameras, there's a certain ideal size and weight, perhaps a little smaller than those. The best hand held camera I've ever used is the early model 16mm Aaton LTR without bars and matte box.

If you're doing covert filming you want a camera that looks like a consumer camera, I don't think the RED will fall into that category. It's too stylish, it says look at me.

I think the ergonomics are a problem for filming all day. Especially if you're working on your own; with mic etc fitted, the shoulder mount is the best. You can work all day with a shoulder mounted camera and do long takes, stuff that you you can't do with the prosumer camera held out in front of you. Ergonomically the best 1/3" camera is the JVC HD 100, a shoulder mounted camera. They need to design a working camera, not just a sensor block.

I think RED have had to create an image of a low price for the indie, so this is why this basic module was shown. However, on pure price the camera head for the SI comes out at $12.5K, which is lot cheaper and you're getting 2K. Although, I'd have to say that I think they could do with a good industrial designer to help with their camera.

If you're doing covert filming you want a camera that looks like a consumer camera, I don't think the RED will fall into that category. It's too stylish, it says look at me.

I dont know, the whole concept of covert filming really isnt all that.
Im not sure anyone who doesnt want to be filmed will take to any type of camera pointed at the...regardless of what it looks like.

True a big bulky vari cam is wierd, the box monster would scare anyone...but the size of this is nice.

what do you mean it aint 4k? thats news.

peace

dalen

to those who attended NAB..was the kinetta guy seen anywhere? i mean the guy's got an advantage over RED..the kinetta has a handcrank :B

But it is form follows function with all of those mount points. No underslung top mounts. A dual cage mount that keeps alignment of two cameras together for stereo shooting. An easier method for whatever you can think of for a steady rig. Someone should have done it sooner, but everyone kept thinking the tripod mounts on the bottom, so we will put the mountpoints there.

They plan that it can shoot a number of formats, 4k is at the high end, the headline figure.

http://www.red.com/products/cameras/redone/formatoptions.html

However, shooting with a 35mm lens would create a large bulky camera, for docs you really need a smaller format camera with smaller lenses. Shooting 4k you could very soon end up with a camera a lot larger than a Varicam when in a shooting configuration. That's not to say you couldn't shoot with a single prime lens when shooting 4k, but you'd have work around the limitations.

I gather Jeff from Kinetta isn't there this year.

However, shooting with a 35mm lens would create a large bulky camera, for docs you really need a smaller format camera with smaller lenses. Shooting 4k you could very soon end up with a camera a lot larger than a Varicam when in a shooting configuration. That's not to say you couldn't shoot with a single prime lens when shooting 4k, but you'd have work around the limitations.

Not to mention that fully kitted out with a 35mm zoom and accessories (rods, matte box, FF, etc), RED could end up being seriously front heavy akin to how front heavy a DVX gets with a mini35 and a 35mm zoom. That's where an ENG-style camera has the advantage of being a little more balanced.

Not to mention that fully kitted out with a 35mm zoom and accessories (rods, matte box, FF, etc), RED could end up being seriously front heavy akin to how front heavy a DVX gets with a mini35 and a 35mm zoom. That's where an ENG-style camera has the advantage of being a little more balanced.

I think they will build special cages for that too :-)
Jim said there will be much more options for new cages at the release.

I think they will build special cages for that too :-)
Jim said there will be much more options for new cages at the release.

I use cages on the Steadicam. A total pain.

A camera should clip together, not involve screws and cages. You want to change from hand held to full studio rig in as short a time as possible. Even more important on indie schedules.

You don't want cages when you're hand holding, they'll bang into your head and give some characters in tight situations something to grab hold of. You want to be able to reach all the controls without wobbling the camera, otherwise you can only really operate with everything on automatic, or just hitting the manual override.

what makes me laugh and cry at the same time is the insane number of screws the various parts have - not cuz they are necessary, but only to make it look more outlandish.


Mmm... Not sure about that. I would rather think it is there to easily access components for future upgrades or maintenance. Maybe the screws at the front are for changing the mount type for other lens like OCT-19, Nikon or Canon... But that's just a guess.

If they were to imitate that mat look of the resin prototypes, I think it would be awesome. With the Cage-One on, you could velcro a protective nylon cover and make it even more discreet (a bag with pockets and a lens).

Yeah, it's pretty grizzly looking. If it lives up to the specs, then it'll be no problem for me or anyone else I'm sure. but still, Matthew's right. The Arri 235 is a design gone Very Very right. That things is perfect. Somthing similar would be very welcome in the digital film world. But, I guess we have to wait and see what this thing does, and how it handles. Supposedly there are tons of mounts all over it, so you could theoretically bolt a shoulder pad etc... on to it, and it may perform well. The cage is ridiculous though. If it has mounts to attach the cage, and the cage is meant to give you mounts, why not just put whatever you need to mount right on the camera's built-in mounts? (did I say mount enough?). Seriously, I'm sure it will be 1 dp's wet dream, but for the majority of people, I'd bet the internal stainless mounts are more than enough. I mean, for years people have been rigging things pretty damn well without any fancy (and ridiculous) cages.

Not to mention that fully kitted out with a 35mm zoom and accessories (rods, matte box, FF, etc), RED could end up being seriously front heavy akin to how front heavy a DVX gets with a mini35 and a 35mm zoom. That's where an ENG-style camera has the advantage of being a little more balanced.

straight from reds site
"Shoot lightweight ENG style (body less than 7 lbs., in rugged magnesium alloy) or load it up to shoot a feature film."

not sure what this means

maybe it means they'll provide thermoformed parts (2 halves formed over a 535B) you can attach to it so it'll sit better on your shoulder :D

"However, on pure price the camera head for the SI comes out at $12.5K, which is lot cheaper and you're getting 2K. Although, I'd have to say that I think they could do with a good industrial designer to help with their camera."

I actually much prefer the plain, all-business look of SI's camera. I don't want my camcorder to look like it came off the set of Alien. Love the retro handle on top too.

If RED doesn´t paint it black or blackish, I will need to do it myself, because that silver will reflect in any surface on your set. Should you happen to be shoooting a dining table in 4k, the reflection of you and your camera will be in all glasses, spoons, and vases...

aside from that I love the camera concept, the design (although I think the full cage is a bit over the top, I would prefer the one with a handle on either side).

But I must see and hear what that chip does before I go to the bank and get a loan...

The thing that strikes me about the RED camera, is that if it does what it is supposed to be doing, it will NOT be out of date for 5-10 years, which is rare in these days... ( I can´t imagine holographic TV´s for at least 10 years... just look how long HDTV is taking)

Dammit Jim, I'm a filmmaker not an aesthete!
I imagine it'll get a bit toasty, or frosty, depending on climate. Might need a pair of Oakley grips to handle the little fella. (The) Image is everything though. The polished finish is nothing a couple of feet of black gaff tape couldn't fix. The specs (and price)? History in the making. Thanks Cap'n.

Dammit Jim, I'm a filmmaker not an aesthete!
I imagine it'll get a bit toasty, or frosty, depending on climate. Might need a pair of Oakley grips to handle the little fella. (The) Image is everything though. The polished finish is nothing a couple of feet of black gaff tape couldn't fix. The specs (and price)? History in the making. Thanks Cap'n.


I respectfully disagree. The image might be everything to someone who is going to set the camera on a tripod and shoot features. For someone like me, who strictly does documentary, the look and feel of the camera are important. The look is important because I dont want my subjects distracted, the feel and ergonomics are important because 70% of my shooting is documentary. I like the fact that this camera weights 7 lbs bare---thats a start. Now if I can shoulder mount it and shoot without total exhaustion that would be even better.

I agree David, I should have qualified that. I hope you get what you require.

Another thing: Jim has said in an interview that if the community (us) have new ideas about a new cage, or better ideas, he's always listening!

Does the lack of a viewfinder bother anyone? LCD screens can be hard to see when shooting outdoors.

Its give and take Carl... sure I would love a reflex viewfinder, but NOT for 10 grand more...
I think the pricing of this camera, providing it delivers what it promises is very reasonable and comprises a large costumer base.

Nobody mentioned a reflex viewfinder. Just a viewfinder full stop IS needed. LCD's are useless when the sun shines. EVen if they supplied a high res LCD viewfinder it would be something merely because it can be totally isolated from all other light when you put your eye up against it.

I respectfully disagree. The look is important because I dont want my subjects distracted,
they will not be distracted...again, the ugly grey bulging boxes are distracting...your lens is larger than the camera on red practically, they wont even see your camera.

peace

dalen

Nobody mentioned a reflex viewfinder. Just a viewfinder full stop IS needed. LCD's are useless when the sun shines. EVen if they supplied a high res LCD viewfinder it would be something merely because it can be totally isolated from all other light when you put your eye up against it.

You do need a proper viewfinder for serious work. On location it's often the only place you can check your shadow detail. Small LCDs are fine for framing shots, but they are useless for making judgements on sharpness and how well the lighting is working.

I can see having an LCD on the side of the sensor module being very useful if you're having to rig a shot inside a car etc. However, it's not something you'd want to make other decisions on.

The other question is how easy is this to maintain? The high end cameras have boards that can be removed to fix faults, has this been factored into the design?

I know one company that often just replaces PD150s because it costs £470 to repair one regardless of the fault.

Obviously I would prefer a proper viewfinder. It will have to be very high res.

Regarding maintenance, I don't think it will be a problem. In one interview Jim Jannard has said that the sensor is upgradable. So that should mean that general maintenance shouldn't be a problem either.

Very much so on the V/F

I notice there are a number 4k cameras (also 8k) showing at NAB this year.

Could be that the RED unique selling point will be that it's the HD version of the Arri 35IIc. Good as the second camera on action stuff and handy for rigging in places where you wouldn't want to put the main production camera.

Also, good enough to keep the lower budget end of the market happy.

Being that the RED cam is so modular and customizable I don't see any issue with RED coming out with a "cage" or body mount that is of a more traditional shape or size, allowing for maybe a viewfinder and an acquisition system + power pack that makes it look like the 235. If you think about it, as long as the RED body has the standard screw mount on the bottom, add a rail system from a conventional camera, a mattebox and a viewfinder and you've got a nice (normal) looking cam right there.

Ben, that is a funny idea! (edit - your idea wasn't 'funny', but I got this picture....) Get a custom Red cage that makes it look like your favorite film camera. Sort of like aftermarket body kits for cars... :P Other popular options include the wood box with curtain to make it look like a circa 1890 camera!