Hi there

Great to see all the info on the RED camera, I've reserved mine and can't wait for production to start.

Looking at the spec I'm still unclear with you can shoot HD 1080 or 2k with a 35mm Film lens. It shows "Windowing" will apply a 2x Optical so if you use a 50mm lens then it will be shooting 100mm which isn't good.

Anyone know more about how to shoot 2k & HD with the Red and a 35mm lens?

When are we likely to see details on the 11 - 100mm Lens which is grayed out on the Red site? Is this a 35mm lens or a S16mm?

I guess the real question is do you purchase 35mm lenses or 16mm lenses or both? I personally would like to have a consistent set of lenses so would probably go for a set of good 35mm lenses if I'm able to shoot the formats I need.

Thanks
Rory

If you shoot with a 35mm film lense but use, say, 1080p as your output format it'll downconvert from 4k in camera for you - so you get the full 4k frame and focal length but output as 1080p. This will limit you to a maximum frame rate of 60fps.

If you use the "windowed" option for 2k, it'll literally just use the 2k portion in the middle of the sensor, but you do get 120fps.

The point is, you can use either methods depending on your situation - you can even use s16mm or 2/3" lenses in "windowed" mode if you want.

what about the 2x Focul Lenght Multiplier?

If you shoot with a 35mm film lense but use, say, 1080p as your output format it'll downconvert from 4k in camera for you - so you get the full 4k frame and focal length but output as 1080p. This will limit you to a maximum frame rate of 60fps.

If you use the "windowed" option for 2k, it'll literally just use the 2k portion in the middle of the sensor, but you do get 120fps.

The point is, you can use either methods depending on your situation - you can even use s16mm or 2/3" lenses in "windowed" mode if you want.


I for one am really pleased to see this - it's and idea they have "borrowed" from Nikon and something I mentioned a while ago as being a great idea for sensor this large - wow does this give sports coverage "options". It also makes the focal length of 16mm lenses correct with this camera although basically a 2x multiplier for 35...

what about the 2x Focul Lenght Multiplier?

Yes, I ask myself the same question. With that 'windowed' option, does that mean that if you put a 16mm lens on it, you DON'T get the 2x Focal Length Multiplier, or do you?
Can someone reply on this?

In windowed mode your 16mm lens will have the normal focal length without multiplier. But the 2K image coming out of the camera will not be as sharp as in the case of using a 35mm lens without window mode because the image is not downsampled from a 4K.

Yes, I ask myself the same question. With that 'windowed' option, does that mean that if you put a 16mm lens on it, you DON'T get the 2x Focal Length Multiplier, or do you?
Can someone reply on this?

Well, it looks like the chip is only full-frame at 4K, so that means you'll be using a section of the center of the sensor for each of the lower resolutions. So yeah, I assume that means you'll apply crop factors just like you do as you use smaller and smaller sensors. So 1080p would have a multiplication factor of almost 3 over 4K. We'll have to wait for RED to publish the actual multiplication factors, but a 35mm lens at 4K will probably be effectively about a 90mm lens at 1080p. That's good for people with access to 16mm lenses, though. Someone can pull out a Cooke 10.8-54mm T1.7 and effectively have a 28-135mm T1.7 lens working for them at 1080p. That's pretty sweet, really. And with the latitude of their wavelet codec, shooting 1080p should pretty much replace 16mm for most people, so it could potentially find a great home among people who already own lenses like that.

not so sweet if you want a 24mm lens to be a 24mm lens.

The XL1 offered the use of Canon EOS lenses but this function was useless unless you where doing telephoto style as it double the focal length by x16.

I don't see the benefit of messing with the focal length of a lens and am still unclear as to what the RED ONE will do with a set of 35mm Film style lenses.

Hopefully we can avoid any Focal Multiplying and use the lenses as they where designed too be used :-)

Hopefully we can avoid any Focal Multiplying and use the lenses as they where designed too be used :-)

This is completely unavoidable when you're changing sensor or film format sizes. We've all dealt with it for years in still photography. Medium Format cameras don't see focal lengths the same way as 35mm which doesn't see focual lengths the same way as APS, etc.

You have to use a lens and sensor combination that works right for your project. The 4K Super-35 setting will be most appealing to people wanting to use very wide angle lenses, probably for narrative fiction productions. The Super-16-ish crops will mate up well to the 16mm lenses that documentary filmmakers have already. ENG shooters will find their HD lenses useful.

so to get 35mm DOF and use 35mm Film lenses you have to shoot in 4k?

and if you want to shoot in HD 1080 you have to use S16mm Lenses?

Whats the deal?

so to get 35mm DOF and use 35mm Film lenses you have to shoot in 4k?

and if you want to shoot in HD 1080 you have to use S16mm Lenses?

Whats the deal?

No.

If you want 35mm DOF you put a 35mm lens on it and the camera will down-scale to 1080p for you.

Unless I am seriously misunderstanding everything I'm reading on the RED website and in interviews with Jim and Ted.

Stephen is right. You can shoot 720, 1080, or 2K with full 35mm depth of field, just like with 4K (but super high quality because it's downsampled), OR you can choose to shoot windowed, which gives the 2x multiplier.

Looking at a DSLR camera like NikonD2X, you record RAW iamges from the full size sensor, at ~11MP. You can 'extract' the middle section (2x crop) for ~ half the resolution and increase the frame rate to 8fps. I think that the RED camera will record on 4k if you want full frame - s35 look, and will have to downconvert it in post.The quality is MUCH HIGHER than the in-camera conversion, and gives you more options for deciding the white balance or enhancing the dynamic range. It will depend on the codec they decide to use for writing to disk - someting like Adobe DNG, can reduce the Raw file size by up to 20%.
It will be good though to have a 'windowing' option for 16:9 or 2:40 aspect ratio, using the full width of the sensor.

the 2K image coming out of the camera will not be as sharp as in the case of using a 35mm lens without window mode because the image is not downsampled from a 4K.

I wouldn't be a 100% sure of that - 16mm lenses are designed to resolve for a 16mm film plate. If you notice any difference shooting 35 lenses on the full plate and downconverting , I would think it would be minimal at best. I imagine it will come down t the quality of the lens being used...

I do not say that the quality difference is the result of the difference between the two lenses or the difference of the size of the areas in windowed and non-windowed mode. It is because of the bayer pattern. I have not seen an unresized image from a bayer camera with any lens that was as sharp pixel to pixel as a downsampled image. Why would the Genesis and the Arri D20 use a much higher pixel count sensor than the output resolution if it did not give you a higher quality picture?

Balazs - you've got me there. Way out of my depth. I just assumed if your target frame size is 2K and your lens can resolve 2K at that pixel size then no amount of increasing the original number of pixels and downconverting will increase resolution. My experience has been that if you take a hi-res photo and downconvert it for TV you get annoying interference patterns in the digital conversion - wouldn't you be risking the same thing downconverting from 4K to 2K?

John - How I imagine it is the following: artifacts are proportional to pixels. Demosaicing and interference patternes as well. When you downconvert something to half the size, de artifacts shrink to half the size and most of them become sub pixel artifacts, which are not visible as much as before the conversion. Anyway my experience is that electronic originated pictures become more free of artifacts if they are downsampled.

You can shoot 2k with 35mm lenses (scaled) and retain 35mm DOF... OR you can shoot 2k (windowed) with 16mm lenses and get 16mm DOF... OR shoot 2k (windowed) with 35mm lenses and get 16mm DOF with a 2x multiplier on your focal length. Lots of options. See chart on camera section.

Jim

You can shoot 2k with 35mm lenses (scaled) and retain 35mm DOF... OR you can shoot 2k (windowed) with 16mm lenses and get 16mm DOF... OR shoot 2k (windowed) with 35mm lenses and get 16mm DOF with a 2x multiplier on your focal length. Lots of options. See chart on camera section.

Jim

Yep - I understood all that from the specs - that's why I love it - gives you options. It means your new 300mm jobby in 2K windowed mode would equal 600mm - that's some serious bit of kit.

I think when Nikon first brought out the windowed mode, some people said huh? But it made sense for sports photography getting you closer to the action at faster frame rates. It makes even more sense in video with differing lens sizes, increased frame rates etc. Well done Jim - I'd like to take credit:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=56308

but I reckon you already had this one being a stills photographer yourself.

Is there any way the RED-ONE will do 4.4.4 in HD 1080p?

Looking at the chart it only list 4.4.4 in 2k and 4.2.2 in HD.

4.4.4 in HD is important to me for Colour Grading and Effects.

Jim when do you expect to release information about the 11-100mm lense and pricing on the cases and storage options?

I'm starting to save now and would really like to understand what cost the full package is likely to come in at - all be it that NAB isn't even over :-)

More info, more, more, more (give an inch, want a mile :-) Humans are just so damn demanding.

Congradulations on the NAB award.
I've reserved #68 RED-ONE in my show of support :-)