From reading one of Jim's statements, it leads me to believe there will be other models of the Red camera. This worries me a little. What will these other models look like? Will feedback from this early batch determine new ergonomics, say? Optical view finder?

I could see holding off on Red 1 until the 2nd unit comes along just to get bugs worked out.

From what I read the impression was that other models would be targeted at different markets and price points, to be developed if the RED-ONE does well. They arn't planned replacements in any way I'm sure.

That wouldn't make much sense. That's what Red's fighting against -- market segmentation. They're building a modular camera, meaning you can change and add things as you go, not buy a new camera as your needs change.

That's why I found it puzzling to mention more camera bodies in the works, or at least hinted at. I'm wondering if the Red 2 might be a different model based on ergonomics, or something like that. After all, this thing will get lots of feedback from shooters pretty soon. I'm sure there will be things that don't quite work out the way the Red team hoped for, and then had to be changed.

Makes me want to hold off, though, until Red 2 or 3. It's like buying a new model car the first year it's out. Better to wait until a few more years when they get the kinks worked out.

Maybe I should have explained my point a little better.

I see the idea of a RED 1.001 coming out a few months after the RED-ONE with $100 off, tweaked, improved, less bugs, and inaccessable to everyone that bought the 1.000 as being everything Jim is against. The camera is modular, upgradable and with a larger degree of obsolesence protection than anything similar. There is no way he is expecting a second or third version of his camera so soon. If cameras need a slight upgrade to the firmware, I would assume this can be done, as opposed to buying a whole new camera with a better moulded grip. He mentions the RED-ONE should not be obsolete in 3 years, so my thoughts are he won't be making a replacement anytime soon.

But once RED has established its reputation as a viable maker of high quality digital cinima cameras, the market opens for a prosumer model, or an ultra high end model, or a super high frame rate model. I'm guessing of course, but my impression was that other cameras in the works would in no way overlap the RED-ONE.

As I understand it, you might need to hold off for YEARS.
And when you buy that camera you will almost certainly have lost a lot of ground and clients. (if that's your game)

Pure speculation though...

Maybe I should have explained my point a little better.

I see the idea of a RED 1.001 coming out a few months after the RED-ONE, tweaked, improved, less bugs as being everything Jim is against. The camera is modular, upgradable and with a larger degree of obsolesence protection than anything similar. There is no way he is expecting a second or third version of his camera so soon. If camera's need a slightly upgrade to the firmware, I would assume this can be done, as opposed to buying a whole new camera with a better moulded grip. He mentions the RED-ONE should not be obsolete in 3 years, so my thoughts are he won't be making a replacement anytime soon.

But once RED has established its reputation as a viable maker of high quality digital cinima cameras, the market opens for a prosumer model, or an ultra high end model, or a super high frame rate model. I'm guessing of course, but my impression was that other cameras in the works would in no way overlap the RED-ONE.

From the original sales material, Jim was saying that this camera will be modular and upgradable. That means no need for market segmentation. You have one camera, with features and upgrades that can be bought and bolted on. Even the sensor, I suppose. Almost a "camera for life" design, which I think it great. But that doesn't jive with the idea of introducing more camera bodies, as was suggested in an interview he gave.

So there's conflicting statements being made. I wouldn't mind hearing something from the Red team. Is there more than one camera body being designed?

You can bolt on lights to the RED-ONE, you can send it back to have its sensor changed but you can't cut it in half to get a cheaper model for another market. You can't use a voodoo curse to get faster frame rates over the whole s35 frame to maintain the same DOF and you can't glue in another 2 chips to get a 3 chip camera should a market need 4:4:4 over the full resolution for super high res green screen. These things need new designs and attempting to put something radically different in the same body is confusing and brand damaging. Porche don't put a lawnmower engine in a fibreglass copy of a 911 body.

Sorry, I don't follow your point.

Anyone on the Red team care to comment?

You can bolt on lights to the RED-ONE, you can send it back to have its sensor changed but you can't cut it in half to get a cheaper model for another market.
In the interview with Jim it was pretty clear that he did not want to release a camera with stripped down capabilities...

Your point is well taken that he could offer a lesser value camera without the pro features, but again, as the comment above just said, this is not what Red is going to do.

They said it cost the same for them to make a crappy camera as it does to make it with all the features...so I dont think you will see a cheaper scaled down (crappy) camera from them as it cost them the exact same as making this.

Yes it is interesting that they impley they will have more cameras based upon the comments made above...so one can understand why you would think this.

Please someone from red step in and clarify this...

peace

dalen

Saying they will not release a stripped down version of the RED-ONE does not automatically preclude a totally new camera with a smaller sensor size, lenses etc. I'd be surprised if they vow never to release anything cheaper than the RED ever!

This is just one example to try and broaden the current view. I do not expect RED to really produce a consumer or prosumer camera, if things are successfull they will need all their production capacity for the ONE. Scaling up to consumer volumes would be unthinkable at this stage for a company with, meaning no disrespect, no track record in this area.

I find my 3 chip and high speeds arguments more likley, but they don't illustrate the need for new body designs, in addition to the new electronics quite as well.

Saying they will not release a stripped down version of the RED-ONE does not automatically preclude a totally new camera with a smaller sensor size, lenses etc. I'd be surprised if they vow never to release anything cheaper than the RED ever!

I see that we are talking above each others headds as we both understand what was said differently.

What I do see is a lack of clarification on this issue, as it was brought up in another forum also...there are some people who have interpreted it the same way as i did (obviously or the thread would not have been started in more than one location by various people)

So I would think that Red (who obviously reads these threads) would comment on this, as some people considering purchasing want to clearly understand what they mean when they say that they are generating an all purpose body that can be updated. One that gives you only the features you need, not some stripped down version that you can already by from Sony, panasonic, etc. (why would they go in that market anyway)

Also those that read that the optical view finder would come in a different camera are equally wondering about the modularity of the Red one if already the hardware cannot be upgraded (as implied the opitical view finder cannot make it in this model...period)

So the question has been brought up briefly here and elsewhere, how modular are you really? How inclusive? Please cross your t's and dot your i's.

Im all for what they are doing, but like others, i am waiting for some clarification.

peace

dalen

Red Five will destroy the empire and bring balance to the Force.

Sorry, I could not resist :P

Missed the reference? Luke Skywalker's callsign in Star Wars - A New Hope (episode IV) was Red Five. Hey, George Lucas might do a signature model?

We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic...

I suspect few did miss it, and given Ted is 'Leader of the rebellion', I suspect the relationship is not unknown in the RED camp.

I just think they first will make RED-ONE.
After a while, they will offer upgrades, and people who already have a RED-ONE, can easily upgrade for a lower cost, and people who still have to buy their first camera, will buy the RED TWO (which is just the RED ONE with upgrades)

Don't know sure about this, but it's the way I see it, after thinking about everything Jim has said in interviews.

I just think they first will make RED-ONE.
After a while, they will offer upgrades, and people who already have a RED-ONE, can easily upgrade for a lower cost, and people who still have to buy their first camera, will buy the RED TWO (which is just the RED ONE with upgrades)

Don't know sure about this, but it's the way I see it, after thinking about everything Jim has said in interviews.

you would think so...anyone from red want to comment on this?

also, the optical viewfinder, it appears would be added to a later camera (if at all) but not be optional for the Red One..

peace

dalen

also, the optical viewfinder, it appears would be added to a later camera (if at all) but not be optional for the Red One.Just realized this thread was here... as we were discussing in the other one, OVF vs. EVF is an either / or decision is camera design. I'm not saying that an "upgrade path" is impossible; I'm saying that it's just not practical. It's less expensive for the customer as well as the manufacturer to simply offer two variants of the body than it is to offer one body that is EVF / OVF switchable. For example, just to use some arbitrary numbers:

$17.5K for Variant One: EVF / elec. shutter only.
$22.5K for Variant Two: OVF / mech. shutter only.
$25K for single body with swappable VF / shutter modules. Includes EVF. OVF module $5K extra.

See what I mean, it's a compromise. Where do you draw the line. You can have an upgradeable sensor and 4K on RED One because there's no physical limitation to prevent you from offering it. But a switching between elec. and opt. VF and elec. / mech. shutter, think about it, I would not call that an upgrade path or a module, for practical reasons. It's less expensive in the long run just to offer two variants of the body.

Jim Jannard addresses many of these issues in my interview with him - as much as they want to release right now.

=Chris Hurd$17.5K for Variant One: EVF / elec. shutter only.
$22.5K for Variant Two: OVF / mech. shutter only.
$25K for single body with swappable VF / shutter modules. Includes EVF. OVF module $5K extra.

See what I mean, it's a compromise. Where do you draw the line. You can have an upgradeable sensor and 4K on RED One because there's no physical limitation to prevent you from offering it. But a switching between elec. and opt. VF and elec. / mech. shutter, think about it, I would not call that an upgrade path or a module, for practical reasons. It's less expensive in the long run just to offer two variants of the body.

Just saw this responce...this crosses over with another recent post.

I guess my only question is *IF* the OVF is so important, than maybe the extra cost is worth it?

My initial guess is that somehow an EVF would replace it...but what do I know...still learning.

peace

dalen

Jim Jannard addresses many of these issues in my interview with him - as much as they want to release right now.Thanks Steve -- I knew there was a good reason for making that link a "sticky."

Maybe they should call the next upgraded option package Green, and then the third one can be Blue. Then you can choose from R,G or B.

if the next version had an optical finder it would be signficantly different. It would change the body to a much more mechanical device with limits to its shutter due to the rotating mirror (in existing reflex film cameras).

I read into the article mentioned that Jim would look at a reflex version if the demand was there for high end film production. As an operator and DP I can understand this, but I'm excited to see what electronic options will be there on The One to see if that is a request that I would make.

Recently having shot a Disney film with HD900's and B&W viewfinders I felt completely compromised as an operator, and felt that the workflow would have to change seriously from traditional shooting when the operator is the one with the worst picture on set rather than the best.

Recently having shot a Disney film with HD900's and B&W viewfinders I felt completely compromised as an operator, and felt that the workflow would have to change seriously from traditional shooting when the operator is the one with the worst picture on set rather than the best.

This is understandable. I spent years with B&W viewfinders in television, but it was all SD work and not nearly as critical when it came to focus. There are a couple of issues worth mentioning here, though, IMO. One is that S35 frame size is fairly small. It's about the same size as APS sensor in digital still cameras and doesn't really lend itself to a huge optical viewfinder, anyway. And the other is that camera movement on Steadicam and remote heads already forces the operator into using a small display. It seems more practical to find better ways of delivering the electronic image to the operator than to find ways to modify the camera so the operator can have his own optical path to the lens. Maybe that's not the way it will go, but I'd love to have a small display that actually gave me enough information to work with. Maybe that's unrealistic at this point.

Maybe Heresy here, but a section of the screen with digital zoom?

It would be great if he did a 1080p camera for $10K for the ENG market, or a lower cost 720p camera to sell to the HDV market. It is realistic, that many people from the HDV market just won't be able to afford the Red One.

Using the existing camera electronics and Red codec as a base for cost savings, with a new 1080 or 720p sensor, this is possible.

They have stated that a lesser spec camera would cost much the same money to produce. The Mysterium chip may not be as high a percentage of the overall camera as you think.

Being able to sell those specs for less than the price SI want for the fall shipping of their camera puts RED-ONE in the special position of having no real competition as yet.

Why would they want to make a 720p camera? What would be the point? They'd be competing against every Hi Def webcam, professional and home camcorder out there in a market where profit has to be generated by sheer volume of sales. Likewise they probably couldn't undercut existing 1080p systems by enough to make the gamble pay off, let alone what could apear in the next year or so.

I'm interested to see what SI will do when the RED-ONE comes out.

I'm also interested in the 4500 USD camera head based on the KODAK chip mentioned in alternative imaging. 1080p Bayer, global shutter and 24fps for 4500 USD! Theres a sub 10K US solution in potentia if the quality is half way decent, alas seems no news since september though the unit is aparently being sold.

Because all those cameras you mentioned are not as good as what they can produce. But maybe you misunderstand what they mean. To tool up for a single camera, establish the business infrastructure, and design and make the sensors, costs about the same money where ever it is 1080 or 4K. But once you have done one the next one is much cheaper because you can use the existing infrastructure and re-using slabs of work from the existing technology work to do it, not to mention just going with a third party chip, like a Foveon. So each subsequent camera has a discount from the work already done from the previous cameras, and the infrastructure costs (very high) that have already been established. In terms of parts a stripped down and refocused camera now is a lot more effected by parts price compared to the first camera. So, going to the Red codec and one drive, and a cheap third part sensor, represents a H1 like cost in small volume, and a ZI like cost in high volume (well not literally, the two are probably much closer together in real cost then their end prices would indicate). The irony is, that once all the startup costs are paid for, subsequent cameras are closer to each other in costs, even if one is 720p and the other is 1080p. The point being that there will probably be a lot of people that will not be able to buy at $17.5K, but will give their money at $10K, and a number that will scrape and save. Because the tow markets and cameras are not really overlapping too much, they can avoid cannibalising each others sales. Hence forth it is possible to make a lot more money, and get to eat your cake.

Now, I have recently read about the things about getting a Red camera, rather then a new HDV camera every year for 5 years (or something like that). If I buy a camera I want it to last for at least 5 years, if I bought a Red, I would want it to last for at least 10 years. I would want to buy a camera that I would be happy with for that time. And I guess I am not the only one out there that this is the case with. There are people that will change every year for 5 years, and can afford to, so they will be some of the sort of people that will buy it, but the market reality is that a lot of people will buy less cheaper. I don't see that they are expecting this camera to sell in that greater a volume anyway, but it does service it's intended market really, really, well, at a very good price point, any extras sales out side of the Indie market are probably bonuses.

The only sort of camera I would frivolously want to replace in a year is something like those $799 H264 HD camera, or a JVC HD1/10/PD1 (anybody got one for sale, even a Sany) as it is no great loss, a side line, and no camera I want to be stuck on for 5 years.


Thanks

Wayne.

many people from the HDV market just won't be able to afford the Red One.RED has never been targeted to the HDV market. It's aimed directly at the Varicam / F950 / Viper market.

The HDV market is served quite well right now and will continue to thrive without RED.

Why would they want to make a 720p camera?Some folks here seem to be forgetting that RED ONE *is* a 720p camera.

RED has never been targeted to the HDV market. It's aimed directly at the Varicam / F950 / Viper market.

The HDV market is served quite well right now and will continue to thrive without RED.

The Red one isn't, but the future ones?. I have spoken to a number of camera companies over the years, who's ambitions are for cheaper models, eventually. Even though I have not spoken to Red about any such thing, I think I saw something like that mentioned somewhere. Any new camera might even be Eng, Studio, or High speed models and have similar prices.

I think all of the HDv variants are covered off by the existing offerings from the majors. I'm not crying about the price of these either - they represent pretty good value.

With the viewfinder issue - I'm all for the electronic one as an add on - I looked at the Accuscene at NAB - like having my eyes peeled. Really great product - proving that a high quality electronic VF is possible. I'm more interested in an onscreen histogram [like a cheap digital still camera has] rather than an optical viewfinder - there are - as Mr Nattress notes elsewhere in this topic - "tricks" for focussing that are, in my mind., perfectly adequate, even at half the res of the Accuscene.

Face it - a digital workflow should mean that a digital viewfinder [of sufficient quality] is adequate for the purpose of focus & framing.

This was my major thinking point on the RED camera after NAB, and I have given myself good couple of weeks to think about it. I was something of a sceptic - but after thnking about all of the variables - I think it is a perfectly reasonable proposition - that it can do it all at the price they suggest.

My other 2c - I tired the cinetech shoulder / waist mount at NAB. Never saw it live - but it's really well made [as is their follow focus] - trust German Expats! - anyway - although the RED looks a little like an ergonomic nightmare [sorry - it is - the Arri 235 is what a camera should be form wise - but that's what 50 years in the business will do for you....this is camera #1 for RED] - so although the RED "gun" thing looks completely improbable for handheld work [with any type of PL mount zoom...holding a camera 2 feet in front of you is completely tiring] something like the Cinetech shoulder / waist kit would work really well for the RED. And tripod / dolly - no problem. I think the "ENG" arguments for this camera are a moot point - that horse has bolted. But for all of the digital cinema / film style stuff [including doco - although it's still a little overbearing for documentary in both form & likely workflow] I think the RED has some real possibillity. And the design - well - you have the Soviet style of the Silicon Imaging unit [less gestural than the RED for sure - but not without its own stoic charm] - as a type of benchmark for other possibilities in this area. The RED is no worse.

Anyway - look at the Viper, Genesis or a panaflex Millenium for cryin' - they are *not* great shoulder mounted cameras....

Anyway - pent up rambling - just think it all looks pretty possible, & the price seems possible too.