This is a question to the Red Team... or anybody who has ever filmed in heavily contaminated areas.

We hope you can give me an answer on that.

We're planing a documentary in the areas surrounding Chernobyl as well as on the terretory of the reactor itself... maybe end of next year.

For medical reasons we can't use a big stuff and we need very light equipment to be able to go in and out in just a little time. Still, we will try to achive as much cinematic style as possible.
RED seems to be a ideal solution to this tasks.

Geiger counter reading there are up to 3 roentgen per hour (thats 300.000 times normal radiation). Some shots include quick-motion (I don't know if this is a correct translation)... let's say heavy undercranking. So the camera will be exposed to that radiatin for several houres or even a day. I heard that such expouses to radiation may cause grain and even damage to modern CMOS sensors. We will be unable to build decent shielding (like demron) to house the camera. Well, if we could, the sensor would still be exposed to gamma and beta rays right through the lens.

I have seen recent footage of the reactor taken with what I think is Betacam without unusual grain (or damage). But that devices use CCD.

Do you have any information of how much radiation the mysterium sensor could take before it shows failures or even brake. Will the Red-Harddisk
be harmed by the radiation?

It would be very kind if someone could give me a few hints on this.

Thanx a lot

use the 300mm lens..you should be able to see it from Germany. :-)

seriously, i wonder what this means from the relation to object and shooter as for distance?

peace

dalen

Funny ;-)

We are going to shoot INSIDE the reactor. Give me a huge hammer and maybe we can shot that with the 300mm.

But seriously... keeping distance ist not an option. And even using 300mm would be like trying to film a Tsunami without getting wet. You will get up to 3 roentgen per hour from 3 miles away.

Do you know the ratio of gamma vs. beta radiation occurring at the site? Do you know the energy of the gamma radiation (which isotopes yield the gammas?). If there is a risk to the sensor or other components is lead shielding an option at all, e.g. lead box and a lead glass port?

We are going to shoot INSIDE the reactor. Give me a huge hammer and maybe we can shot that with the 300mm.

INSIDE the reactor?!?

The one which melted down? I'd be more worried about dying than the camera being damaged.

Now thats some question Jim...

Unfortunatly I can't give that informations as I couldn't find them on the Web... or better.. I did not understand most of the data.

Lead shielding is not a good option due to its high weight. We're planing go to site using BMW 1200 GS Adveturer Motorcycles... they can be used to provide 12Volt and take a lot of load... but i presume a lead shielding would be way to heavy having additional load like food, laptops, lights and our personal demron shields (http://www.radshieldstore.com/) and masks. We could use demron for shielding the camera... if that is nessesary. Demron or lead shielding will only give you about 30% less gamma and 80% less beta radiation (100% alpha of course). Still we would have 2 roentgens per hour on the CMOS (using a lead filter for the lens). Is this much of a difference for the sensor? Demron is quite expensive

Mike... well not right in the reactor, but in the controle room and else... if we get a permit (or maybe we do it gurillia style without permit). Sure this is quite a danger for ones helth... but remember that most liquidators working on the sarcophagus are still alive 20 years later.... being exposed to 100 times the current radiation. We are willing to take that risk for a day or three.

Most of the shooting will go on in Pripyat (Ghost Town) a very spooky place with much less radiation.

Attenuation is dependent on thickness, so even a lead foil would provide some degree of protection. A health physics newsgroup on Usenet (sci.med.physics?) might be a good source for further info.

Who will be manufacturing the Mysterium sensor?

Mike... well not right in the reactor, but in the controle room and else... if we get a permit (or maybe we do it gurillia style without permit). Sure this is quite a danger for ones helth... but remember that most liquidators working on the sarcophagus are still alive 20 years later.... being exposed to 100 times the current radiation. We are willing to take that risk for a day or three.

Most of the shooting will go on in Pripyat (Ghost Town) a very spooky place with much less radiation.
Nikolas- First off, congrats on your choice of locations. I would certainly like to be able to shoot that place. Secondly, I would not consider doing anything out of what you have permission to do. Russia may have softened up some, but dude, it is still Russia. It would be bad enough to risk radiation poisoning, but to have radiation poisoning while rotting in a Gulag somewhere... no thanks! Be safe!!!

Also, be sure to drink plenty of fluids. Those suits get very hot, and you will fill it with sweat in nothing flat.

1.
Thats true for sure, the question would be IF nessesary how thinck would the shield have to be to get a apropiate gamma radiation level.

I'm talking to a Physik at the moment to find out more (on personal health, too. Well, he's no CMOS specialist and we would need specific dato of the sensor... thats why I asked the Red Team if they had any knowlege about this.

2.
Ha, ha Jim... thats what we and the industry all want to know.

If some of the Red Team is going to tell you... they will have to kill you afterwards.

Maybe it's made somewhere in Area 54 ;-)

Thanks for the help Jim

Mike... well not right in the reactor, but in the controle room and else...

Good. Isn't the reactor still one of the most radioactive place on Earth?

Sounds really interesting, good luck with the shoot. There was a really good docu/drama on the BBC recently about the meltdown. It would be worth getting hold of. Some of the best TV I've seen in a long time.

Hey Keith,

thanks for the flowers ;-)

Healthrisks: I smoke two packs a day... thats way more dangerous than filming in chernobyl... seriously

Well, it's not Russia... it's Ukrania... but you better not get caught for sure. Yep, we will try everthing to stay legal.
On the other hand... these places are desertet and abandoned. There is no one around most of the time (would you?).

Thanks for the suit tip... I never worn one before. Most people don't weare suits being on site.... but we can stay longer with less risk using them.

Nikolas,

Knowing a little something about radiation I think you need to reevaluate the whole project.

There are hotspots inside the 'sheild' that will kill in under an hour, and with very serious and immediate health risks, to say nothing of risks later in life. I hope you have had all the children you want and that cancer in two or so decades would not be significantly shortening your life. Be sure whatever radiation equipment does not max out at any level you might experience. Geiger counters tend to. Try a modern *military* detector rather than a scientific or mineralogical one. These arn't popular because nothing anyone will normally experience will shift the digital scale off zero.

More importantly you are under the impression that Demron is light and effective for sheilding against radiation. This is untrue, completely an totally. It is no more effective WEIGHT for WEIGHT than traditional lead sheilding as has been shown by US goverment testing.

Primary requirements, special breathing aperatus, and that anything worn be easily decontaminated. Maybe a thin plastic 'body condom' that can be removed easily, or a sheer surface that can be decontaminated easily. Fabric you want to keep is a really bad idea, Demron or otherwise.

Demron was designed to sheild against low energy X rays. It was not designed to be decontaminated easily, and I cannot speak for the air filtering ability of whatever it is supplied with. The fact this forms a core basis of your plan I find very worrying.

Hello Mike,

as long as you don't inside an active reactor... I do think so.

Thanks for the tip.
I have seen a lot of features about this subjekt. We will try to get a very differnt view of it. We would do much about the blowup or the liquidators... what we want to do is a very emotional view of the deserted villages, the remaining peasants and the wildlife (lots of wolves, horses and boares (spelling?)).

These places have a strange black beauty to them. You will start crying while just looking at a landcape.

The person you might want to talk to is someone who deals in radiology in hospitals. That should provide a good mix of info. A really good one would be a sensor manufacturers engineering department and I can't recall but I think their is a couple in Germany already.

But here is what I can figure. The spectral response graphs for these sensors (not red, its custom but its cmos so follow same rules in terms of response, not saying its not a special sensor) cut off at the UV and IR lengths, or just into them. Thats only because thats where they need to test too. The Long wavelengths are everywhere (microwaves and radiowaves) and they only affect electronics a small degree unless in huge amounts of power.

The Gammma and X-rays and stuff will cause sensor damage unless they are sheilded. Unfortunately I can't guess the extent, but UV light if filtered can harm sensors and the shorter the wavelength I would suspect the easier to damnage electronics and specifically a sensor because you are intentionally sending stuff at it.

The lead enclosure is a neat idea, cover as best you can for protection purposes. From what I remember O3 gas blocks these short wavelengths in our atmosphere so it might be possible to get a small transparent gas chamber to place in front of the lens. But before looking for something like that you might want to find out a wide spectral transmission response for the lense you will be using.

This is all based on what i barely remember, so don't quote me for it. I'm of the matter of take a day, run in with a really cheap CMOS camera with no protection and see if it can last for a while. Like rig it with big batteries so it can run for 12 hours, put it in a high radiation zone and check back to see if it still works 10 or 12 hours latter. If you don't have a permit this might be a bad thing to do because it means you need two trips in just for a test, and another trip for just a shot.

With the best will in the world Keith,

"From what I remember O3 gas blocks these short wavelengths in our atmosphere so it might be possible to get a small transparent gas chamber to place in front of the lens."

Is physics worthy of a John Doe episode.

I would not expect radiation levels to significantly affect a camera outside the regions of the reactor building, but using a cheap and disposable camera would be better for a lot of reasons. A beta sheild out of thin lead foil (Roofing lead) around the sensor would indeed be a smart move and far more effective than Demron as I have said.

Marvin,

we are perfectly aware of what Demron can do... and what not. Depending on our budget we will not buy them at all. We will avoid hot spots for sure.... we will have to evaluate a lot about "Do's and Don'ts" before we go anywhere.

We're not a suicide commando!

Who would ever edit our footage, if we dont make it home in good health ;-)

A very good suggestion with the geiger. Thanks for that. There are some affordable!!! civilian models with very high scales. I think that we will avoid places where the geiger goes off scale. Mask will only help against contamination with alpha particles that might occure inside buildings. Some sort of chemical shower will be only needed when entering sites with lots of particels.

Again... will will NOT enter the reactor core... we will evaluate the places of the reacor witch are "safe" to go on very short time sections. If these places are not reachable... we won't go. Well, there seem to be places like that. I've seen recent photos of the controle room.

No worrys

Marvin,
We're not a suicide commando!

Who would ever edit our footage, if we dont make it home in good health ;-)



I'll edit your footage, in the event you can't... Just make sure you print your notes legibly, and leave the tapes to me in your will... ;)

"will NOT enter the reactor core"

I realise this but last I was aware, there were very large holes in the concrete 'sheild' where dust could escape to the environs. This may be out of date, but the possibility of airborn particles probably exceeds the risk of the total radiation exposure and its 2 or so decades until you are most likley to experience problems.

I agree with Keith, you should consult a professional radiologist.

Gamma is unlikley to cause problems in the sensor at human tolerable levels, but a certified radiation hard sensor would cost a fortune and be subject to import/export control laws. RED is unlikley to want to comment on the subject.

Keith & Marvin,

thank for all the good advice.

Thats what we're giong to do. Maby have some test with my old Canon 300D inside a X-Ray.... if somebody will give that support.

We're don't want to hurt our brand new RED unless Jim J. gives us corporate sponsoring with cameras to roast them with radiation ;-)

How about it Jim? The ultimate endurance test. If RED can do this.... it can be shot on Mars to give that crap Pathfinder images hell.

Just kidding.

I guess will get some protection for the camera... but according to the manufacturer Demron will be more effective that a "think" plate of lead. Yes... I know... the manufacturer.

"I'll edit your footage, in the event you can't... Just make sure you print your notes legibly, and leave the tapes to me in your will... ;)"


You are such a sweetheart Keith... ;-)

Was it you who came up with "The Blair Witch Project"?


Marvin,

as I said... we will consult a professional radiologist first of all.
Yep, there are holes... yep, we will have to avoid airborn particles as good as possible. Still, most survivors of the accident remain in "good" health 20 year later... even exposed to wicked amounts of gamma and breathing particals like tobacco smoke.

That is not to mean that we want to try this...

Kids... Don't try this at home.

Unless the Demron is significantly thicker than previously indicated sheilding will be negligable. It was designed for low energy X rays. A decent sheild should be attenuating by orders of magnetude, not percentages.

http://www.radshield.com/RST_Livermore_Results.pdf

Do not kid yourself, its primary importance will be stopping you get anything on your skin. Against radiation from fission products like Cesium isotopes, probably the biggest source, you may as well be wearing a bin liner as several mm of Demron.

You're funny!

Nikolas, you might want to check in on Elana Filitova at this site
www.angelfire.com/extreme4/kiddofspeed/journal/articles.html
Perhaps you're already aware, but she's been shooting stills and video at the Chernobyl site for years. Rides her motorcycle in and out. Says her dad was/is physicist. Good luck with the project.

Marvin,

hmmmm... there are a lot of diffent views to this issue on the Web. Let's see what the professionals say according to personal shielding.

Thanks for the tip.

Hello Bill,

I definitely know Elenas website. A great page for all who are interessted in chernobly like it really is today. I already tryed to contact her as we want her to by our "guide"... no reply so far. I donated quite a bit of money, so I hope she will come back to me on this.

One thing for sure... this woman got balls... well, do you say this with a woman? ;-)

Great respect for her work... just inspiring!!!!!!!

Thanks for the good wishes... we can use them ;-)

yes you're likely to destroy the sensor getting dead pixels by the dozens..this already happens on long shoots in hight altitude - check out nasa.org..i once found an article on camera life onboard the ISS (or was it the MIR :D )

I know that thay had a Betacam onbord for quite a while... they made a exelent movie from that. That looked good... no dead pixels (visible). There where not enough missions to replace that camera permenantly. So, that can't be that bad.

But thats different rays

one of the best element against radiation (with lead) is Bore.
you can probably mix it with some "glue" and put a thick layer on the camera.
Anyway, do not hop to bring anything contaminated back with you.
to protect the sensor, the easy way would be to use leaded glass.
you would loose some stop (it looks gray like a neutral filter).
Glasse with bore is possible too, but i do not know the specs.

??? I will not glue my RED !!!!! ;-)

We will bring all "contaminated" stuff back... the trick ist to prevent contamination. I bet that all photographers and film crews that shot on site brought their equipment back. Otherwise it would be a way to expensive task to film in Chernobyl.

I believe one of the major risks is not radiation per se, but radioactive material, even tiny specks, that may get ingested. A tiny amount of a radioactive substance within the body is more dangerous than a lot outside. There have been documentaries from the area recently on UK TV, and I am led to believe that radiation would be a far greater hazard to the human than the camera.

Obvious precautions are that protective overalls are worn in the area, and bagged on exit for specialist disposal. Don't eat or drink wihin any possibly contaminated area, or touch mouth with hand. A simple filter may be a good idea, (such as used when doing woodwork) just to minimise the risk of dust inhalation. Radiation badges should be worn at all times. An obvious risk is picking up contamination on equipment, and you wouldn't then bring that into an aeroplane for the flight home, would you?

There are specialist companies that give advice and help manage such work. Obviously they charge, but it may be seen as an essential investment.

Fully agreed David.

Tough plastic air tight bags for things like camcorders if you plan to keep using them afterwards, which can be discarded as well as cleaned.

Giroud,

Unsure what you mean by Bore, if this is Boron, then its very good at certain types radiation like low energy neutrons, but pretty useless at the beta/gamma the camera would experience in the hot zone.

Thank you guys,

as we discussed before airborne particels should be avoiden – actually not a problem being outside the reactor buildings due to the rain that washed those partikels into the ground... plants do transport these particels to surface again... that is why gras for example will get higher geiger countings than the normal ground.

Protective overals will only be needed INSIDE the sarcophagus. During the 20 years memorial event on the 26th there where hundrets of people – even high class politics – all without any suits or masks. They would'nt have done that if it was a high risc to health. We may wear suits and mask to lower the risk because we will stay a few days - not only hours. These precautions will be unnessesary getting out of the 15 mile zone ground zero.

I presume that the RED is shielded against dust und rain. Alpha particals will be unable to get inside the camera. The normal housing of the sensor (made of magnesium) is sufficient to block 100% of alpha and beta emission from the outside.

The main Problem for the sensor might be gamma radiation that can't be shielded... we would need strong housing made of lead and leaded glass (at least one inch strenghts) that would be way to heavy to carry on our motorcyles. That is what my hole question is about. Will the CMOS be damaged at 3 Röntgen per hour.... or will it not.

I've carried 3 full loads of laundry and a 100 lb Labrador Retriever on a bike. I doubt a lead shield and camera will be that bad.

Yes Keith...

but you did not have to carry 100 lbs Equipment + 200 lbs camera shielding through desertet areas and torn up roads.... or drive a 1000 miles.

Hey, I have a Labrador, too... me old lady eats everything... all the time ;-)

No, I won't take her with me to Chernobyl

Maybe you should think about a small cycle trailer, if you have that much stuff. My point was, if you need to get it there on a bike, it isn't impossible. And, you have never seen what we call roads down here...

Cycle trailer.... hmmm maybe.... I just hate the idea to ride having a trailer at my ass ;-)

Well, I did spend some time in Florida... what I learned from that? Don't go cycling in the everglades :-)))))

The one time I went to the Keys, I was on a bike. I developed electrical issues just after getting to the islands, and ended up pushing the bike back over the bridges- in the dark, and riding/pushing it the rest of the way to Homestead. That was where the only Kawi dealer was. So, in the wee hours of the night, I find the dealer, and get settled in to await them in the morning. That is when I realised I was smack dab in the middle of crack town. Yippee!

nice ;-))))

What made that night really memorable, was all the Police driving by. Any other time, a long haired biker sitting in front of a shop at 3AM, would have warranted them stopping to question me. The one time I wouldn't have minded them pulling over for a chat, and they just kept going!

We may wear suits and mask to lower the risk because we will stay a few days - not only hours. These precautions will be unnessesary getting out of the 15 mile zone ground zero.
Sorry - I wasn't very clear. I foresaw the suits and masks as desirable not to protect you from radiation, but to stop contamination getting on clothing, footwear, tripod etc. Not because it may harm you there and then, but because you may carry it out of the area, and who knows what happens then? This way, any contamination stays on the suits, and in the disposal bags.

Keith, sounds like an inspiration for your first RED feature. I mean to say: a motorcyclist pushing his bike 'round the Keys all night, having to avoid all kinds of "weirdo's" and street poets 'till the repair shop opens at first light....
The envelope please... : )

Bill- The only problem with that scenario is, Red isn't made for folks like me. The JVC HD250 on the other hand, fits my budget.

Here is a paper that may be of interest, if a little technical:

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/pdfs/FinalPerformanceReport.pdf

For medical reasons we can't use a big stuff and we need very light equipment to be able to go in and out in just a little time. RED seems to be a ideal solution to this tasks.


The Red camera, especially with a PL lens covering 35mm, is going to be anything but light. The actual size of the body hasn't been conveyed well in the web site renderings.

Check out some of the pics floating around from NAB. Chris Hurd was going to get some pics of the protos held by human hands because it was becoming apparent that some aren't getting the right idea.

Nikolas,

It scares me that you are hoping Elena can be your guide in Chernobyl. I am almost certain she has been proven to be a fake or at least guilty of greatly embellishing her story. I have been reading this thread, hoping and assuming you have the incredible, extensive knowledge necessary to not be permanently damaged by the project you have in mind.

Info about Elena from-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidd_of_speed

"The accuracy of that story has since been questioned, not least because motorcycles are specifically forbidden inside the 30km reactor exclusion zone, which can only be accessed through permanently manned checkpoints."

You say-
"Still, most survivors of the accident remain in "good" health 20 year later."

You do know that 31 people working on containing the accident died immediately after the accident, 28 from radiation poisoning, don't you? It seems that many estimate a very large portion of that radiation is still contained on the site and will be for an incredible amount of time.

Nothing is worth risking your health, not even this tremendously moving place. Photos from the Chernobyl region are truly some of the most memorable photos I have ever encountered. I know why this project appeals to you.

For samples from David McMillan, that may be new to others or even you, I cannot recommend more-
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~dmcmill/Photographs.html

Chris Hurd was going to get some pics of the protos held by human hands because it was becoming apparent that some aren't getting the right idea.Frederic Haubrich is helping me out with that. There's a story behind this request. Stand by.

Jarrod,

well... I don't think Elenas story is a fake. It would be just to hard to fake the fotos etc. The checkpoints are definately not permanenly maned anymore (they where a few years ago). Anyway... who needs checkpoint when riding a Enduro. The area is just to huge to be shut by the government. Thats a bit like the U.S. boarders to mexico.

"You do know that 31 people working on containing the accident died immediately after the accident, 28 from radiation poisoning, don't you? It seems that many estimate a very large portion of that radiation is still contained on the site and will be for an incredible amount of time. "

An offical release by international experts from last week claims that only about 50 casulties can be counted for sure. (Greenpace claims 500.000... but thats the the overall dead of that area in 20 years... including all natural causes like old age). Most of the 600.000 Liquidators working on the clean up are in good health (phobias and alcoholism is not counted af direct effect).

It seems like there is NOT a higher risk in Kiev to die from cancer than there is in Alabama. The forbidden zone is something different, and still.... there are people living there.... for over 20 years. We consider that the risks for our health are accetable while taking precautions and staing just for about four weeks.

Thank you for the link... great pictures there... I cant wait to see that as a moving picture shot with the RED.

Yes, it deffinately appeals to me.

Jim,

great link there. Definately a base to discuss with a radiologist.

Thanks a lot ;-)