Speedgrade Onset?

Bill Ravens · August 7th, 2008, 07:52 AM

David...

I'm really intrigued by Cineform's latest release of Neo HD beta. Does this mean CF will support Speedgrade .look files? If so, I'm afraid I don't quite see how to implement the LUT when I do a CFHD transform.

Am I mistaken, can you please shed more light on how this will be implemented? Is this effective only on capture, or will an LUT be able to be applied to a "convert" with HDLINK?
Many thanx.

David Taylor · August 7th, 2008, 08:59 AM

Bill, currently LUTs can be applied within PPro when using Prospect 4K. LUTs can be applied to all CineForm file types. The best way to learn the details is to look at our Tech Notes here: http://www.cineform.com/products/Tec...tm#CineFormRAW.

Two in particular might be useful:
Using LUTs in PPro: http://www.cineform.com/products/Tec...rmRAW-PPro.htm
Exporting LUTs from PPro: http://www.cineform.com/products/Tec...Generation.htm.

There are others as well. We believe this is a very new and powerful and way of beginning your color grade. It is not intended as a replacement for color correction, although a music video shot on the SI-2K used only LUTs for color correction.

To answer your specific question, yes the LUT format we use is the .Look format by Iridas.

LUTs are not applied upon capture unless you're using SI-2K where we are the in-camera acquisition format. Instead they're added/manipulated in post using a utility accessed through the Playback Setting panel in PPro.

Bill Ravens · August 7th, 2008, 09:10 AM

Thanx David...

Unfortunately, I don't use PPro. My guess is that implementation of LUT's is the prerogative of the NLE manufacturer. Since my mainline editor is AVID, it remains for Avid to incorporate LUT's in their workflow?

I was wishing Cineform would let me access a .look file, outside of the end NLE, strictly for the purposes of color timing.

Oh well.

David Taylor · August 7th, 2008, 09:15 AM

Bill the way we manage the LUTs and other color processing is NLE independent. When the NLE requests the CineForm codec, the codec (undeknownst to the NLE) accesses the CineForm color database (which is outside the NLE). Based on the database settings, parameters such as White Balance, Saturation Matrix, and 3D LUTs are applied to the decoder output prior to presenting the decoded data to the NLE.

Within PPro we built the control panel for Active Metadata inside the application. So temporarily the ability to modify Active Metadata on Windows requires PPro, but the architecture of dynamically applying color metadata is independent of the NLE. On Mac we've released the SetActiveMetadata utility that allows you to modify Active Metadata outside any NLE, so it works for FCP, PPro-Mac, QT Player, etc. At some point we'll also move the panel to modify AM outside PPro-Windows. We just haven't done that work yet.

Bill Ravens · August 7th, 2008, 12:37 PM

David....

....ahhhhh, it sounds really exciting. I can't wait until CF implements some external control, like this on a PC platform. Non-destructive color grading that happens independently of the NLE is stuff dreams are made of. The Speedgrade controls are quite easy to use.

Out of curiousity, it would sure be interesting to bundle an LUT with a specific video file and playback format like CFHD; so that the color timing could be changed "on-the fly", and non-destructively, of course. Or, at least linked to the specific playback file. Would that ever be a reality?

Thanx,
Bill

David Taylor · August 7th, 2008, 12:57 PM

Bill, I'm not sure exactly what your question is, but let me answer based on what I think your question is.

Once you have decided on a (non-destructive) LUT for a particular file (or groups of files), you can export the CineForm color database and the associated LUTs to an export format which can be dragged (or emailed) to another system. You simply import the CDB and LUTs, then whomever plays that file on the other end is the beneficiary of your LUT selection.

In this way you can have one individual on a project assigned as the LUT colorist, and he/she can simply publish a new CDB at anytime which others on the project can simply import. We'll ultimatel have semaphore style protection to prevent multiple people from simultaneously modifying the same clip.

Bill Ravens · August 7th, 2008, 01:20 PM

David...

Thanx, so much, for your time and explanations. I really didn't have a question, so much as I was just rambling. No need for you to take more time.
This is an exciting time for video.

David Taylor · August 7th, 2008, 01:26 PM

No problem. But for whatever reason I felt compelled to answer "would that ever be a reality"? :-)

August 7th, 2008, 07:52 AM	#1
Bill Ravens Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 2,738 Images: 10	Speedgrade Onset? David... I'm really intrigued by Cineform's latest release of Neo HD beta. Does this mean CF will support Speedgrade .look files? If so, I'm afraid I don't quite see how to implement the LUT when I do a CFHD transform. Am I mistaken, can you please shed more light on how this will be implemented? Is this effective only on capture, or will an LUT be able to be applied to a "convert" with HDLINK? Many thanx. __________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~CHALCHIHUITL (fix it in post) PRODUCTIONS~~~~~~~~~~~ XDCAM EX--JVC HD110-----PC Based Avid Media Composer/Edius Broadcast/Vegas Pro--CINEFORM Last edited by Bill Ravens; August 7th, 2008 at 08:30 AM.

August 7th, 2008, 09:10 AM	#3
Bill Ravens Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 2,738 Images: 10	Thanx David... Unfortunately, I don't use PPro. My guess is that implementation of LUT's is the prerogative of the NLE manufacturer. Since my mainline editor is AVID, it remains for Avid to incorporate LUT's in their workflow? I was wishing Cineform would let me access a .look file, outside of the end NLE, strictly for the purposes of color timing. Oh well. __________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~CHALCHIHUITL (fix it in post) PRODUCTIONS~~~~~~~~~~~ XDCAM EX--JVC HD110-----PC Based Avid Media Composer/Edius Broadcast/Vegas Pro--CINEFORM

August 7th, 2008, 12:37 PM	#5
Bill Ravens Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 2,738 Images: 10	David.... ....ahhhhh, it sounds really exciting. I can't wait until CF implements some external control, like this on a PC platform. Non-destructive color grading that happens independently of the NLE is stuff dreams are made of. The Speedgrade controls are quite easy to use. Out of curiousity, it would sure be interesting to bundle an LUT with a specific video file and playback format like CFHD; so that the color timing could be changed "on-the fly", and non-destructively, of course. Or, at least linked to the specific playback file. Would that ever be a reality? Thanx, Bill __________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~CHALCHIHUITL (fix it in post) PRODUCTIONS~~~~~~~~~~~ XDCAM EX--JVC HD110-----PC Based Avid Media Composer/Edius Broadcast/Vegas Pro--CINEFORM

August 7th, 2008, 01:20 PM	#7
Bill Ravens Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 2,738 Images: 10	David... Thanx, so much, for your time and explanations. I really didn't have a question, so much as I was just rambling. No need for you to take more time. This is an exciting time for video. __________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~CHALCHIHUITL (fix it in post) PRODUCTIONS~~~~~~~~~~~ XDCAM EX--JVC HD110-----PC Based Avid Media Composer/Edius Broadcast/Vegas Pro--CINEFORM

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August 7th, 2008, 08:59 AM	#2
David Taylor Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Solana Beach, CA Posts: 547	Bill, currently LUTs can be applied within PPro when using Prospect 4K. LUTs can be applied to all CineForm file types. The best way to learn the details is to look at our Tech Notes here: http://www.cineform.com/products/Tec...tm#CineFormRAW. Two in particular might be useful: Using LUTs in PPro: http://www.cineform.com/products/Tec...rmRAW-PPro.htm Exporting LUTs from PPro: http://www.cineform.com/products/Tec...Generation.htm. There are others as well. We believe this is a very new and powerful and way of beginning your color grade. It is not intended as a replacement for color correction, although a music video shot on the SI-2K used only LUTs for color correction. To answer your specific question, yes the LUT format we use is the .Look format by Iridas. LUTs are not applied upon capture unless you're using SI-2K where we are the in-camera acquisition format. Instead they're added/manipulated in post using a utility accessed through the Playback Setting panel in PPro.

August 7th, 2008, 09:15 AM	#4
David Taylor Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Solana Beach, CA Posts: 547	Bill the way we manage the LUTs and other color processing is NLE independent. When the NLE requests the CineForm codec, the codec (undeknownst to the NLE) accesses the CineForm color database (which is outside the NLE). Based on the database settings, parameters such as White Balance, Saturation Matrix, and 3D LUTs are applied to the decoder output prior to presenting the decoded data to the NLE. Within PPro we built the control panel for Active Metadata inside the application. So temporarily the ability to modify Active Metadata on Windows requires PPro, but the architecture of dynamically applying color metadata is independent of the NLE. On Mac we've released the SetActiveMetadata utility that allows you to modify Active Metadata outside any NLE, so it works for FCP, PPro-Mac, QT Player, etc. At some point we'll also move the panel to modify AM outside PPro-Windows. We just haven't done that work yet.

August 7th, 2008, 12:57 PM	#6
David Taylor Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Solana Beach, CA Posts: 547	Bill, I'm not sure exactly what your question is, but let me answer based on what I think your question is. Once you have decided on a (non-destructive) LUT for a particular file (or groups of files), you can export the CineForm color database and the associated LUTs to an export format which can be dragged (or emailed) to another system. You simply import the CDB and LUTs, then whomever plays that file on the other end is the beneficiary of your LUT selection. In this way you can have one individual on a project assigned as the LUT colorist, and he/she can simply publish a new CDB at anytime which others on the project can simply import. We'll ultimatel have semaphore style protection to prevent multiple people from simultaneously modifying the same clip.

August 7th, 2008, 01:26 PM	#8
David Taylor Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Solana Beach, CA Posts: 547	No problem. But for whatever reason I felt compelled to answer "would that ever be a reality"? :-)