Steve Phillipps

Right, here are some more tests shot on PDW700.
"5" is an old Fujinon 8.5x5.5
"90" is a Tamron 90 macro
"300" is a Canon 300mm f2.8
"HA" is a Fujinon HD lens
"HA90" is the Fujinon HD lens at 90mm
"HA300" is the FUjinon HD lens at 300mm
"J14" is an old Canon J14

Haven't yet had a good look, be interesting to see what you think.

Steve

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Steve Phillipps

Here's my quick analysis:

Looks to me on the wide shot that the 5.5 Fujinon is actually the best, then the HD lens, then the J14. The 300 prime looks a lot better than HD lens (BUT the HD lens did have to have the 2x extender on to get to 300, but aperture was f5.6 or so, so not as though it was wide open, and if it's made with an extender then it should bloody work!). The 90 macro looks pretty similar to the HD lens to me, tricky one to judge because being a CU the depth of field comes into play and bit of one look sharper than the other, and then vice versa on another part of the image.

All these were mid apertures-ish, between f5.6-f8 ish.
Hmmm!

Steve

Brian Drysdale

It would be better to test wide open or even f2.8, any differences will start to show through clearly. At f5.6 to f8 even poorer lenses tend to show up well on tests.

Steve Phillipps

When I did my previous tests I did some at f3.5ish, and same at f8ish, and the differences showed in both (ie the poorer lens looked poorer at both apertures and by the same amount). Personally I try to avoid wide open on any lens (except a Leica 105-280 I had a few years back that was sensational wide open), as they all suffer unless you stop down about 1 stop or more, and then crappy again of couse beyond f11ish.
Steve

Brian Drysdale

F2.8 is a pretty commonly used stop, you've got that one stop improvement on most zooms. Although, I do like to have a lens that you can actually use wide open, it's handy in low light situations or if you want a shallower DOF.

Steve Phillipps

You just won't get the performance wide open, all video lenses tend to be soft wide open, some dreadfully so. Also, I think what I and others are looking for here is not whether an SD lens can compete with an HD lens at the extremes and under worst-case conditions, but whether for a fraction of the cost you can get an image of very similar quality when the lens is used sensibly (ie medium apertures, no extender).
Looking again, that Fuji 8.5x5.5 does look a lot better than the HD Fujinon. Same for the 300 Canon (though again not 100% fair as the HD lens had extender on).

Steve

Brian Drysdale

The SD wide angle zooms are excellent, so I wouldn't be too surprised that they hold up well against a HD standard zoom.

Medium apertures are OK for day exteriors, but for interiors and night exteriors the wider stops are commonly used, not only on docs, but also on drama work. It's how well the zooms actually do hold up at these wide stops, especially under extreme lighting conditions that's important, using only the medium apertures is extremely limiting creatively. I'd push the lenses further than shooting the day exteriors.

I'd also check for CA, which is an issue even on the HD lenses.

Steve Phillipps

In general CA seems to be less of an issue with SD lenses, and certainly is with this wide angle vs the HD lens.
If I get time I'll try to do a couple of wide open tests, but I expect them to have the same relative performance, and for all to look a bit crap! When you're talking about dramas, using wide apertures really does require primes, that's why they've always been favoured for serious creative work, and still are.
Steve

Steve Phillipps

OK, here's a couple of print, with the 5.5 SD lens and the HD 22x Fujinon, both wide open. Close I'd say, but DoF again is a problem.
Steve

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Brian Drysdale

Dramas commonly use zooms, especially the Wide Angles, because of the breathing issue with the other zooms and they tend to be better quality. Of course, primes are also used, but zooms tend to be the workhorses on many dramas, especially for TV. There are some high quality HD zooms intended for drama type work.

:: CARL ZEISS DIGIPRIME & DIGIZOOM LENSES ::
Cooke S4 HD Zoom
Plus the Panavision zooms.

However, the Canon or Fuji are more likely on quite a few productions. Often using f2.8 because stopping down does improve the performance, but you've got a shallower DOF which is desirable (if not a 35mm DOF). It also keeps the heat from the lighting down and has lower power requirements.

Perhaps the test really says that if you want to shoot HD using wide apertures you need better lenses than these particular zooms.

BTW Cooke had a SD zoom video lens for 2/3", an impressive performer.

Steve Phillipps

Thats' the thing though, Brian, the sort of zooms that do have a good rep are going to be seriously expensive even by HD lens standards. The first HD lens I ever used was a Canon CineStyle, and I must admit it was excellent, but even with that I'm sure I remember that it wanted to be stopped down about a stop for optimal performance.
What do you think to the wide open tests I've just done?
Steve

Brian Drysdale

Assuming the same f stop, my first thought is that the 5jpeg doesn't seem to have the transmission losses of the ha jpeg lens. The 5jpeg seems to sharper at the edges and perhaps a slight edge in the centre.

Yes, stopping down the Canon a stop does really improve the performance.