ND1.5 and ND1.8 filters

Ryan Avery · January 22nd, 2008, 04:22 PM

FYI to all Red Users,

We have recieved a significant number of orders for ND1.5 and ND1.8 filters specifically for use with the Red camera. Apparently these filters are required for shooting at lower apertures in bright sun light. I have yet to see the effect or shoot with this camera but I guess the effect is that the camera essentially shoots at 400 asa equivalent or higher. I leave that to your discussion and discretion but the orders continue to roll in for this filter strength so if you are considering using this cam, I think the filters might be in order. Please let me know if any other issues or if you have heard otherwise.

Thanks,

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

Brian Drysdale · January 22nd, 2008, 04:41 PM

The broadcast video cameras have heavy ND filters built in on their internal filter wheels: 1/64 ND - plus a correction filter, so that the ND range being ordered would make sense for shooting on the RED.

For shooting film on exteriors the slower stocks tend to be used.

John Beale · January 22nd, 2008, 05:13 PM

Many people are rating the Red camera around ISO 320 to 500, so I believe that Ryan Avery's post is quite right. A strong ND is needed for good image quality on the Red with reasonable exposures in outdoor daytime use. It is good to hear that ND 1.5 and 1.8 (that is 5 and 6 stops attenuation, respectively) are now available. Just several months ago I heard that filters for cine camera use in that ND range were not available anywhere.

Don Donatello · January 23rd, 2008, 01:54 PM

was shooting Red 103 last week in SF bright sunny day ... with ND 1.2 we were still getting F16-22 .. i prefer to be 5.6-8 area ... i just received my Schneider 1.8 .... 1.5 was back ordered ...
ND9 will not do for a sunny day ....

Heiko Saele · February 11th, 2008, 06:13 AM

What would be the equivalent of a 1.2ND and 1.5ND in video terms? Something around 1/32 I guess? Or more?

Chris Hurd · February 11th, 2008, 07:00 AM

1.2ND cuts down four stops -- 1.5ND cuts down five stops.

John Beale · February 11th, 2008, 06:04 PM

Remember that unlike optical viewfinders on film cameras, video viewfinders show you just what the sensor sees. Using the ND outside gives you a good image in viewfinder and in the final recorded image. If you didn't use a ND filter outside, your viewfinder would be mostly white, because the image would be overexposed. Unless you use extreme shutter speeds, which make the motion jittery, and/or you use extreme apertures, which make the image blurry.

Dominic Jones · February 14th, 2008, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heiko Saele

What would be the equivalent of a 1.2ND and 1.5ND in video terms? Something around 1/32 I guess? Or more?

That's a good guess! 1.5 is equivalent to 1/32, if I'm not mistaken.

Steve Gibby · February 15th, 2008, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Donatello

was shooting Red 103 last week in SF bright sunny day ... with ND 1.2 we were still getting F16-22 .. i prefer to be 5.6-8 area ... i just received my Schneider 1.8 .... 1.5 was back ordered ...
ND9 will not do for a sunny day ....

Don't know how you were setting up your RED, but as you know, I own four REDs, one of them for over five months now. I shoot tons of footage outside in bright light, and I've rarely used stronger than ND9 to get me to f8 for outside sports and nature shooting. I also have ND 1.2, ND6, ND4, and ND3 available. What ASA setting were you using? Shutter speed?

Ryan Avery · February 15th, 2008, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Gibby

Don't know how you were setting up your RED, but as you know, I own four REDs, one of them for over five months now. I shoot tons of footage outside in bright light, and I've rarely used stronger than ND9 to get me to f8 for outside sports and nature shooting. I also have ND 1.2, ND6, ND4, and ND3 available. What ASA setting were you using? Shutter speed?

Steve,

The situation is exactly as you say. If you are trying to shoot at F8 then an ND9 would be fine. But if you are trying to shoot the lens wide open, then you need a much stronger ND. Also, you are shooting sports and nature whcih generally require higher shutter speeds which would be consistent with your reported results. I have yet to shoot with the RED. This is all feedback from the many people ordering these filters due to the problems they have experienced.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

Don Donatello · February 16th, 2008, 04:48 PM

"What ASA setting were you using? Shutter speed?"

this was from when i had open testing on 103 - from what i recall - they were rating it at 320 .. 23.976fps ..shutter? 1/48 or possible 1/40 using ND9 +ND3 = 1.2 ...location at the marina in SF ... 90+ percent of the boats are white ... not using light meter - i'm going by how they were setting the F stop ... guessing with all the white boats in direct sunlight it was exposed more for the white then average grey ..

i did just go outside - set light meter to ISO 40 ( -3 stops from ISO 320 =ND9 ) and i get F16 /24fps/ 1/48th sec ...

David Mullen · March 16th, 2008, 01:23 AM

Just saw this thread...

It's not really a RED issue, just an ASA versus light level issue.

Generally you can tell if your meter is working right or not because on a clear sunny day in California, you get a little more than f/16 at 50 ASA at 24 fps with a 1/48th shutter speed -- in direct frontal sunlight. Obviously in backlight you can open up a little more and split the exposure between the sun and shade.

So at 320 ASA, you should need an ND.9 to get around an f/16 in frontal sunlight, maybe f/8 in backlight.

I shoot a lot of 250D stock outside, rated at 160 ASA, and generally with an ND.9 I get an f/11 in frontal hard sunlight on a clear day.

Now if you're using telephoto lenses, f/11 or f/16 can still have a shallow-focus look in 35mm or the RED.

By the way, f/16 at 50 ASA with a 1/50th shutter corresponds to the "Sunny 16" rule in photography:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunny_16_rule

Ryan Avery · March 20th, 2008, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Mullen

Just saw this thread...

It's not really a RED issue, just an ASA versus light level issue.

Generally you can tell if your meter is working right or not because on a clear sunny day in California, you get a little more than f/16 at 50 ASA at 24 fps with a 1/48th shutter speed -- in direct frontal sunlight. Obviously in backlight you can open up a little more and split the exposure between the sun and shade.

So at 320 ASA, you should need an ND.9 to get around an f/16 in frontal sunlight, maybe f/8 in backlight.

I shoot a lot of 250D stock outside, rated at 160 ASA, and generally with an ND.9 I get an f/11 in frontal hard sunlight on a clear day.

Now if you're using telephoto lenses, f/11 or f/16 can still have a shallow-focus look in 35mm or the RED.

By the way, f/16 at 50 ASA with a 1/50th shutter corresponds to the "Sunny 16" rule in photography:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunny_16_rule

David,

Thanks for your insight. I always value your comments.

BTW, we have done some further testing to discover that stacking lower strengths NDs on 4k cameras causes some IR bleed through creating red in the black tones.

Our new ND1.5 and ND1.8 filters reduce if not eliminate this problem versus stacking lower strengths of ND. If you are using our lower strength ND filters they will not cause IR issues either.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

Meryem Ersoz · March 20th, 2008, 12:26 PM

you don't get much brighter than the high-altitude sun that we have in colorado, at least within the US...

i've only shot with my camera a couple of times now, since it arrived about a minute ago. but in bright sunlight, it seems okay at 320 with the .09, i can shoot at about f8

i have a 1.2 and will do some more experiments and report back...it does seem that to shoot wide open, some of these phat ND filters might be a nice add...

i have followed the IR issue, and it seems that these could be preventative for that, as well, which seems the more important issue...but i also feel like it is something that few people will encounter, and it has been posed as a "problem" with RED...when it isn't in about 99% of circumstances...

David Mullen · March 22nd, 2008, 06:11 PM

So does this mean that the heavier grades of Schneider ND's have added some degree of IR filtration to the glass?

It's good news if so... because obviously sometimes you want to shoot even wider-open outdoors in sunlight, like at f/2.8 or f/4, for less depth of field. That's the downside to using a 250 ASA stock or a 320 ASA digital camera... in those situations where I'd normally use a 50 ASA stock and an ND6 or ND9.

January 22nd, 2008, 05:13 PM	#3
John Beale Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 67	ND filters for Red One Many people are rating the Red camera around ISO 320 to 500, so I believe that Ryan Avery's post is quite right. A strong ND is needed for good image quality on the Red with reasonable exposures in outdoor daytime use. It is good to hear that ND 1.5 and 1.8 (that is 5 and 6 stops attenuation, respectively) are now available. Just several months ago I heard that filters for cine camera use in that ND range were not available anywhere.

February 11th, 2008, 07:00 AM	#6
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 21,370 Images: 535	1.2ND cuts down four stops -- 1.5ND cuts down five stops. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net for quick answers \| The best in the business: DV Info Net Sponsors \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 16th, 2008, 01:23 AM	#12
David Mullen American Society of Cinematographers Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 111	Just saw this thread... It's not really a RED issue, just an ASA versus light level issue. Generally you can tell if your meter is working right or not because on a clear sunny day in California, you get a little more than f/16 at 50 ASA at 24 fps with a 1/48th shutter speed -- in direct frontal sunlight. Obviously in backlight you can open up a little more and split the exposure between the sun and shade. So at 320 ASA, you should need an ND.9 to get around an f/16 in frontal sunlight, maybe f/8 in backlight. I shoot a lot of 250D stock outside, rated at 160 ASA, and generally with an ND.9 I get an f/11 in frontal hard sunlight on a clear day. Now if you're using telephoto lenses, f/11 or f/16 can still have a shallow-focus look in 35mm or the RED. By the way, f/16 at 50 ASA with a 1/50th shutter corresponds to the "Sunny 16" rule in photography: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunny_16_rule __________________ David Mullen, ASC Los Angeles Last edited by David Mullen; March 16th, 2008 at 03:22 AM.

March 22nd, 2008, 06:11 PM	#15
David Mullen American Society of Cinematographers Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 111	So does this mean that the heavier grades of Schneider ND's have added some degree of IR filtration to the glass? It's good news if so... because obviously sometimes you want to shoot even wider-open outdoors in sunlight, like at f/2.8 or f/4, for less depth of field. That's the downside to using a 250 ASA stock or a 320 ASA digital camera... in those situations where I'd normally use a 50 ASA stock and an ND6 or ND9. __________________ David Mullen, ASC Los Angeles

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January 22nd, 2008, 04:22 PM	#1
Ryan Avery Sponsor: Schneider Optics Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Van Nuys, CA Posts: 295	FYI to all Red Users, We have recieved a significant number of orders for ND1.5 and ND1.8 filters specifically for use with the Red camera. Apparently these filters are required for shooting at lower apertures in bright sun light. I have yet to see the effect or shoot with this camera but I guess the effect is that the camera essentially shoots at 400 asa equivalent or higher. I leave that to your discussion and discretion but the orders continue to roll in for this filter strength so if you are considering using this cam, I think the filters might be in order. Please let me know if any other issues or if you have heard otherwise. Thanks, Ryan Avery Schneider Optics

January 22nd, 2008, 04:41 PM	#2
Brian Drysdale Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 1,004	The broadcast video cameras have heavy ND filters built in on their internal filter wheels: 1/64 ND - plus a correction filter, so that the ND range being ordered would make sense for shooting on the RED. For shooting film on exteriors the slower stocks tend to be used.

January 23rd, 2008, 01:54 PM	#4
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,262	was shooting Red 103 last week in SF bright sunny day ... with ND 1.2 we were still getting F16-22 .. i prefer to be 5.6-8 area ... i just received my Schneider 1.8 .... 1.5 was back ordered ... ND9 will not do for a sunny day ....

February 11th, 2008, 06:13 AM	#5
Heiko Saele Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Wurzburg, Germany Posts: 222	What would be the equivalent of a 1.2ND and 1.5ND in video terms? Something around 1/32 I guess? Or more?

February 11th, 2008, 06:04 PM	#7
John Beale Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 67	Remember that unlike optical viewfinders on film cameras, video viewfinders show you just what the sensor sees. Using the ND outside gives you a good image in viewfinder and in the final recorded image. If you didn't use a ND filter outside, your viewfinder would be mostly white, because the image would be overexposed. Unless you use extreme shutter speeds, which make the motion jittery, and/or you use extreme apertures, which make the image blurry.

February 16th, 2008, 04:48 PM	#11
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,262	"What ASA setting were you using? Shutter speed?" this was from when i had open testing on 103 - from what i recall - they were rating it at 320 .. 23.976fps ..shutter? 1/48 or possible 1/40 using ND9 +ND3 = 1.2 ...location at the marina in SF ... 90+ percent of the boats are white ... not using light meter - i'm going by how they were setting the F stop ... guessing with all the white boats in direct sunlight it was exposed more for the white then average grey .. i did just go outside - set light meter to ISO 40 ( -3 stops from ISO 320 =ND9 ) and i get F16 /24fps/ 1/48th sec ...

March 20th, 2008, 12:26 PM	#14
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 2,482	you don't get much brighter than the high-altitude sun that we have in colorado, at least within the US... i've only shot with my camera a couple of times now, since it arrived about a minute ago. but in bright sunlight, it seems okay at 320 with the .09, i can shoot at about f8 i have a 1.2 and will do some more experiments and report back...it does seem that to shoot wide open, some of these phat ND filters might be a nice add... i have followed the IR issue, and it seems that these could be preventative for that, as well, which seems the more important issue...but i also feel like it is something that few people will encounter, and it has been posed as a "problem" with RED...when it isn't in about 99% of circumstances...