RED Epic, 5K, early 2009

David Garvin · April 14th, 2008, 11:55 AM

How come all the buzz is about the 3K Scarlet when this 5K bad boy is coming out at the same time?

- FULL FRAME S35MM NEW MYSTERIUM X SENSOR
- 1-100 FPS
- UP TO 100 MB/SEC. REDCODE RAW AND RGB RECORDING TO REDFLASH
- FULL SIZE DUAL LINK HD-SDI, 2-XLR AUDIO INPUTS AND HDMI
- WI-FI CONTROL
- FIREWIRE 800 and USB2
- 6 POUND FULLY MACHINED ALUMINUM BODY WITH HYBRID STAINLESS PL MOUNT
- COMPATIBLE WITH MOST RED ONE ACCESSORIES
- FULLY UPGRADABLE SENSOR, BODY, BOARDS AND MOUNT.

http://www.red.com/nab/epic

David Garvin · April 14th, 2008, 11:58 AM

Here's a pic from the website.

Steve Connor · April 14th, 2008, 12:01 PM

and you can trade your RED in for $17,500 off the price, now that's taking care of your customer base!

Ethan Cooper · April 14th, 2008, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Connor

and you can trade your RED in for $17,500 off the price, now that's taking care of your customer base!

It's also covering your arse for saying your camera would render obsolescence obsolete. It's hardware, it's going be become a paperweight someday.

Supposedly coming in around $40,000 for the body.

David Garvin · April 14th, 2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethan Cooper

It's also covering your arse for saying your camera would render obsolescence obsolete.

Exactly. The RED ONE won't ever be obsolete if you can buy perpetual 'upgrades' for it (even if the word "upgrade" actually means having the entire camera replaced)

Luis de la Cerda · April 14th, 2008, 12:52 PM

Obsolete for whom? I never thought I'd live to see the day people would call a 4k video camera obsolete. You people are caught in the megapixel race. My trusty old canon 20D has much less resolution than the red one and I certainly don't consider it "obsolete" :)

Mathieu Ghekiere · April 14th, 2008, 01:10 PM

Are such actions financially healthy for RED? That you can trade in your RED ONE for a RED EPIC, in the future?

Paul Curtis · April 14th, 2008, 01:15 PM

Why 5k? It means that the pixel size of the sensor is even smaller than 4k so unless they've performed some sensor magic (which is not beyond the realm of possibility!) then sensitivity could be worse at 5k, which strikes me as one of the bigger issues with the red one?

I look forward to reading more about changes with the sensor. Sounds like they can improve rolling shutter (based on the increased frame rates they are talking about) and im sure they've learnt enormous amounts with red one.

is $40k true? $18 to $40k is quite a big leap. (still compared to anything similar it's peanuts)

cheers
paul

John C. Butler · April 14th, 2008, 01:19 PM

$40k seems a bit high, especially for a smaller than you would think improvement in video resolution. Is red going the way of digital camera companies? (High priced upgrades with more pixels on the same size sensor for significantly more money) I would think instead a more viable option for a higher end flagship would be a 65mm alternative with a 6k (or whatever) 65mm sensor.

Mathieu Ghekiere · April 14th, 2008, 01:21 PM

Maybe it will also have much more dynamic range and more features, I'm sure of it. They know people won't pay much more for only 5k instead of 4k. Resolution isn't THAT important.

I just see this as interesting to see how it will all develop. Look at how RED started from a 2k onboard camera to a 4k onboard camera, etcetera, how many features they added in the development process. I'm sure it will be the same with the RED EPIC.

John C. Butler · April 14th, 2008, 01:35 PM

That's true. It isn't always about pixel size,but how well designed the ccd/cmos and how good the internal processing is (moot for raw shooters though). When Kodak released a 13 mp full frame dslr in 2003 there was a lot of excitement until it was revealed it had ridiculous noise at and above iso 400. This sensor could very well be engineered to have lower noise and better range than the red one. We'll just have to wait (more waiting) and see.

Ethan Cooper · April 14th, 2008, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis de la Cerda

Obsolete for whom? I never thought I'd live to see the day people would call a 4k video camera obsolete. You people are caught in the megapixel race. My trusty old canon 20D has much less resolution than the red one and I certainly don't consider it "obsolete" :)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying 4K is obsolete, but the sensors, boards, and other electronics will be old technology in a short amount of time.
4K is just a number, so is 5K. I'd imagine the real upgrade is the light sensitivity of the sensor, the way the camera handles motion and hilights, and the processing.

John Beale · April 14th, 2008, 03:47 PM

For the current state of the art in theatrical projection, the general consensus from my reading seems to be that 4k is either "plenty" or "more than enough" depending on who you talk to. On the other hand, as Jim himself notes, film still has more dynamic range than Red One ("for now").

Given (other things being equal) that there is a direct tradeoff between pixel size and dynamic range, I'd expect the tradeoff to go towards bigger pixels, not the other way. You could do a bigger sensor of course, but increasing sensor size beyond S35 frame means 1) locking yourself out of the huge existing stock of 35mm film lenses, and 2) significant increase in cost of the sensor itself.

Steven Thomas · April 14th, 2008, 03:59 PM

The majority of the users buying the RED EPIC body for $40k are probably not the same guys buying RED ONE at $17K.

As it is now, you need close to $30K invested in RED ONE for a less to moderate system. The EPIC would be at least $60K with the additionals.

Justin McAleece · April 15th, 2008, 11:10 PM

I just got my RED ONE 759 about a month ago and it is weird that I feel like I already need more. it's a natural human phenomenon that you have to have 'the best.' i love my camera and what it can do and don't even have a lot of the parts yet but in another year I might take their offer to switch out the body. if not i will almost certainly switch out the sensor. (wonder how much that costs). either way if it's going on celluloid in a theater then I have a long time before i need to be worried about not having enough resolution. it's just so damn tempting to play the numbers game. if i just tell people that i shot it all on 35mm then maybe they won't care. (in 5 years i bet they'll look down their nose at me though for still using that stuff.) anyway it's a tricky thing when you want 'the best' but don't really have any other reason besides the fact that it's 'the best'

look what i did - RED One Camera Rentals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HlyktFTRLs&fmt=18

Video Production Manager
BLARE Media
www.BLAREMedia.net

April 14th, 2008, 11:55 AM	#1
David Garvin Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Central, OH Posts: 200	RED Epic, 5K, early 2009 How come all the buzz is about the 3K Scarlet when this 5K bad boy is coming out at the same time? - FULL FRAME S35MM NEW MYSTERIUM X SENSOR - 1-100 FPS - UP TO 100 MB/SEC. REDCODE RAW AND RGB RECORDING TO REDFLASH - FULL SIZE DUAL LINK HD-SDI, 2-XLR AUDIO INPUTS AND HDMI - WI-FI CONTROL - FIREWIRE 800 and USB2 - 6 POUND FULLY MACHINED ALUMINUM BODY WITH HYBRID STAINLESS PL MOUNT - COMPATIBLE WITH MOST RED ONE ACCESSORIES - FULLY UPGRADABLE SENSOR, BODY, BOARDS AND MOUNT. http://www.red.com/nab/epic

April 14th, 2008, 01:10 PM	#7
Mathieu Ghekiere Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,914	Are such actions financially healthy for RED? That you can trade in your RED ONE for a RED EPIC, in the future? __________________ http://productionsofthe3rdkind.com http://pr3k.com

April 14th, 2008, 01:21 PM	#10
Mathieu Ghekiere Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,914	Maybe it will also have much more dynamic range and more features, I'm sure of it. They know people won't pay much more for only 5k instead of 4k. Resolution isn't THAT important. I just see this as interesting to see how it will all develop. Look at how RED started from a 2k onboard camera to a 4k onboard camera, etcetera, how many features they added in the development process. I'm sure it will be the same with the RED EPIC. __________________ http://productionsofthe3rdkind.com http://pr3k.com

April 15th, 2008, 11:10 PM	#15
Justin McAleece New Boot Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Fresno CA Posts: 17	obsolescence I just got my RED ONE 759 about a month ago and it is weird that I feel like I already need more. it's a natural human phenomenon that you have to have 'the best.' i love my camera and what it can do and don't even have a lot of the parts yet but in another year I might take their offer to switch out the body. if not i will almost certainly switch out the sensor. (wonder how much that costs). either way if it's going on celluloid in a theater then I have a long time before i need to be worried about not having enough resolution. it's just so damn tempting to play the numbers game. if i just tell people that i shot it all on 35mm then maybe they won't care. (in 5 years i bet they'll look down their nose at me though for still using that stuff.) anyway it's a tricky thing when you want 'the best' but don't really have any other reason besides the fact that it's 'the best' look what i did - RED One Camera Rentals http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HlyktFTRLs&fmt=18 Video Production Manager BLARE Media www.BLAREMedia.net Last edited by Justin McAleece; April 15th, 2008 at 11:15 PM. Reason: forgot tag

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April 14th, 2008, 11:58 AM	#2
David Garvin Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Central, OH Posts: 200	Here's a pic from the website.

April 14th, 2008, 12:01 PM	#3
Steve Connor Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK Posts: 275	and you can trade your RED in for $17,500 off the price, now that's taking care of your customer base!

April 14th, 2008, 12:52 PM	#6
Luis de la Cerda Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Mexico City Posts: 102	Obsolete for whom? I never thought I'd live to see the day people would call a 4k video camera obsolete. You people are caught in the megapixel race. My trusty old canon 20D has much less resolution than the red one and I certainly don't consider it "obsolete" :)

April 14th, 2008, 01:15 PM	#8
Paul Curtis Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canterbury Posts: 227	Why 5k? It means that the pixel size of the sensor is even smaller than 4k so unless they've performed some sensor magic (which is not beyond the realm of possibility!) then sensitivity could be worse at 5k, which strikes me as one of the bigger issues with the red one? I look forward to reading more about changes with the sensor. Sounds like they can improve rolling shutter (based on the increased frame rates they are talking about) and im sure they've learnt enormous amounts with red one. is $40k true? $18 to $40k is quite a big leap. (still compared to anything similar it's peanuts) cheers paul

April 14th, 2008, 01:19 PM	#9
John C. Butler Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Woodbury, New Jersey Posts: 30	$40k seems a bit high, especially for a smaller than you would think improvement in video resolution. Is red going the way of digital camera companies? (High priced upgrades with more pixels on the same size sensor for significantly more money) I would think instead a more viable option for a higher end flagship would be a 65mm alternative with a 6k (or whatever) 65mm sensor.

April 14th, 2008, 01:35 PM	#11
John C. Butler Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Woodbury, New Jersey Posts: 30	That's true. It isn't always about pixel size,but how well designed the ccd/cmos and how good the internal processing is (moot for raw shooters though). When Kodak released a 13 mp full frame dslr in 2003 there was a lot of excitement until it was revealed it had ridiculous noise at and above iso 400. This sensor could very well be engineered to have lower noise and better range than the red one. We'll just have to wait (more waiting) and see.

April 14th, 2008, 03:47 PM	#13
John Beale Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 67	For the current state of the art in theatrical projection, the general consensus from my reading seems to be that 4k is either "plenty" or "more than enough" depending on who you talk to. On the other hand, as Jim himself notes, film still has more dynamic range than Red One ("for now"). Given (other things being equal) that there is a direct tradeoff between pixel size and dynamic range, I'd expect the tradeoff to go towards bigger pixels, not the other way. You could do a bigger sensor of course, but increasing sensor size beyond S35 frame means 1) locking yourself out of the huge existing stock of 35mm film lenses, and 2) significant increase in cost of the sensor itself.

April 14th, 2008, 03:59 PM	#14
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Casa Grande, AZ Posts: 1,776	The majority of the users buying the RED EPIC body for $40k are probably not the same guys buying RED ONE at $17K. As it is now, you need close to $30K invested in RED ONE for a less to moderate system. The EPIC would be at least $60K with the additionals.