RED RAY - Sleeping Giant

David Knaggs · April 25th, 2008, 06:05 PM

It's hard to believe that this product announcement hasn't even had its own thread to date.

It's taken me several days to obtain a perspective on the magnitude of RED's NAB announcements.

And, to be perfectly blunt, RED RAY is the #1 announcement for me.

And I do believe that Scarlet will have a MASSIVE effect on indie filmmaking across the world. Most indie filmmakers will be "like a rat up a drainpipe" when it comes to making this camera work for their production. I'm not sure how most will overcome the limitations of the fixed 8X lens, but where there's a will there's always a way.

So I'm not underestimating Scarlet.

Epic is very high on my personal wish list. Start with a RED One, get a second RED One, then later upgrade one of the REDs to an Epic. Whenever you want to do impressive outdoor shots to really add to the "Wow" factor for the audience, then the perfectly-named Epic would be a must for me.

But I'll stand by my statement that RED RAY is the most important RED announcement of NAB 2008.

They'd already announced RED One at an earlier NAB (their most important announcement ever, in my opinion).

Scarlet, the pocket professional cam, may well prove the most POPULAR of the RED products, but it won't be game-changing (like the RED One is). At the sub-$10K low end (where Scarlet is pitched) indies have had the JVC GY-HD100 (with its gorgeous 720p images) since mid-2005 and the Sony PMW-EX1 (1080p with 1/2" chips) since late-2007 (with the EX3 about to come out with its detachable lenses plus a hard drive option for longer recording times). And at the sub-$1K super-low-end you have the Canon HV20, etc.

So that game has already been changed. Scarlet will IMPROVE it, perhaps even dominate it eventually, but it won't change it. Indies already can, and have, gotten theatrical release with sub-$10k cameras. ("Gabriel" obtained a recent theatrical run in Australia, for example. Shot on JVC GY-HD100 series cameras.)

The big indie game-changer from this NAB is RED RAY.

How did Gabriel get its theatrical release? They transferred it to film, of course. How did "Kenny" (a massive Aussie indie hit shot "documentary-style" on a PD 150!!!) get its theatrical release? Transferred to film.

The words "transfer to film" are the biggest block to viable distribution of indie movies.

In a post last year, I mentioned the three key areas for an indie to bring his/her work before a viable audience:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....8&postcount=22

They are: NLE, CAMERA and ACCESS TO DIGITAL CINEMA. (And that "access" breaks down into two areas: a) player and b) projector.)

Apple are the kings of the indie NLE (Final Cut Studio).
RED are the kings of the indie camera (RED One).

And RED RAY may well prove to be the "battering ram" that solves access to digital cinema for indies.

It's the game changer.

Right now, I would just about "kill" for an immediate five or six of these RED RAY players. I've got my 720p24 indie movie, which I'll have to a final, releasable cut in about six weeks or so. I know of one local cinema chain which does have digital projectors installed (whether they are SD or HD I do not know - yet). I also have no idea what sort of players they have connected to the projectors (and neither did the individual theatre operators when spoken to by phone!).

So there is a real and immediate void to be filled (media format and player), especially for those with 2K and 4K content!

Affordable, quality 4K projectors are the other part of the puzzle to be put into place.

Jon Fairhurst · April 25th, 2008, 06:24 PM

Great analysis.

Keep in mind that Regal Cinemas is in the process of changing out all of its film projectors for digital ones. Delivery will be on LTO tape. (They considered hard drives, but figured that their young employees might be tempted to take them to upgrade their computers.)

So... rather than a film transfer, one can consider a 2K or 4K JPEG-2000 render to LTO tape. I don't know if any licenses are involved or if you can skip the DRM and provide copy protection by personally managing the tape.

Of course, it could be hell to try to confirm compatibility - you don't want to fly to a festival, insert tape and see an error message! Burning a disc, testing it on your RED RAY and bringing both to the festival is MUCH simpler.

But once you start talking real distribution, I think the LTO/JPEG-2000 solution is the way to go, simply because somebody with a financial interest will be likely to demand copy protection.

Another advantage of LTO/JPEG-2000 is that the system has internationalization features. One tape can serve global markets with alternate audio, versions and subtitles.

Glenn Chan · April 25th, 2008, 06:28 PM

Quote:

I'm not sure how most will overcome the limitations of the fixed 8X lens, but where there's a will there's always a way.

Um... 35mm adapter, wide angle adapter, etc. ?

Or, rent a Red One. Lotsa options.

(Jeez I used to remember that people were disappointed the DVX100 didn't shoot 16:9 and that you had to get an anamorphic adapter.)

Quote:

They are: NLE, CAMERA and ACCESS TO DIGITAL CINEMA. (And that "access" breaks down into two areas: a) player and b) projector.)

I don't think the player was necessarily that expensive before Redray... you can get a laptop with Prores or whatnot.

The projector is still the expensive part of the equation. And I don't see anything really promising on that horizon.

2- To me, the most exciting display system is not 4K. It would be a display capable of producing really nice blacks... something like the eCinema DPX (granted, very expensive) or something like the FET prototypes I saw at NAB (granted, not shipping and #2 in blacks). I prefer that over 4K resolution.

I guess I'm not really excited about 4K display systems.

(Wow, this post seems very negative to me. I don't mean to do that.)

David Knaggs · April 25th, 2008, 06:30 PM

Thanks, Jon.

I'll look into the LTO solution (after all, RED RAY won't be ready until early 2009!).

I really appreciate the tip.

David Knaggs · April 25th, 2008, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn Chan

Um... 35mm adapter, wide angle adapter, etc. ?

Hi Glenn.

I was referring specifically to the 8X zoom.

I earlier posted about this here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....1&postcount=28

Please clarify how a 35mm adapter or wide angle adapter would improve the zoom?

Glenn Chan · April 25th, 2008, 06:45 PM

With a 35mm adapter you can put any lens you want on the 35mm adapter.

David Knaggs · April 25th, 2008, 06:54 PM

Thanks, Glenn. I haven't used a 35mm adapter, but I'd always assumed they only took primes, not zooms. My bad!

David Knaggs · April 25th, 2008, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn Chan

I don't think the player was necessarily that expensive before Redray... you can get a laptop with Prores or whatnot.

Again, I might be making an assumption, but wouldn't the RED RAY be mostly hardware-based in the way that it plays out the movie from the disc?

That, to me, would be more important than a mostly software-based player (on a laptop) especially if you're showing 4K material. The chances of problems with a software based program on a laptop would, I fear, be far greater than a more dedicated hardware solution such as LTO tape or RED RAY.

Audiences hate being interrupted in the middle of a movie.

For me, hardware-based is far less risky, especially for a paying audience.

And don't overlook what I said about media format.

In my original post, when I stated, "So there is a real and immediate void to be filled (media format and player)," the aspect of media format is one of the most intriguing things about RED RAY. A 2 hour long 4K movie on a regular dual-layer DVD is definitely game-changing in terms of distribution costs.

However content protection for RED RAY media looms as a major concern and I'll be interested to see what sort of options RED provides as they roll out the RED RAY.

Jon Fairhurst · April 25th, 2008, 08:28 PM

Here's the information about the Digital Cinema System Specification.

http://www.dcimovies.com/

Here's the 156 page spec.

http://www.dcimovies.com/DCIDigitalC...emSpecv1_2.pdf

I don't think we'll be seeing any $199 software packages for encoding to this standard for a while. Looks like you'd need to send your master to a specialty service house in LA for the "digital transfer". But it's gotta be cheaper than printing films - if you forgo copy protection and keep it simple.

The nice thing is not only that it's hardware based, but almost every projectionist in the country will be trained on this system in the next five years.

Brian Drysdale · April 26th, 2008, 06:20 PM

The DCI system will be the standard. That's not to say that if your local cinema with a 2k projector can't input from another source. The local art house cinema here projected digital shorts on their 2k projector from a feed out off a laptop. However, that's a one off screening and getting distribution for an indie feature is entirely another matter and RED RAY won't get the bums on seats that theatre owners need (usually 15 to 25 year old popcorn eaters). That'll require marketing and a product that the audiences wish to see.

April 25th, 2008, 08:28 PM	#9
Jon Fairhurst Trustee Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 1,072	Here's the information about the Digital Cinema System Specification. http://www.dcimovies.com/ Here's the 156 page spec. http://www.dcimovies.com/DCIDigitalC...emSpecv1_2.pdf I don't think we'll be seeing any $199 software packages for encoding to this standard for a while. Looks like you'd need to send your master to a specialty service house in LA for the "digital transfer". But it's gotta be cheaper than printing films - if you forgo copy protection and keep it simple. The nice thing is not only that it's hardware based, but almost every projectionist in the country will be trained on this system in the next five years. __________________ Jon Fairhurst FRESH FILMS WEEKLY AT COLONELCRUSH.COM.

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April 25th, 2008, 06:05 PM	#1
David Knaggs Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 409	RED RAY - Sleeping Giant It's hard to believe that this product announcement hasn't even had its own thread to date. It's taken me several days to obtain a perspective on the magnitude of RED's NAB announcements. And, to be perfectly blunt, RED RAY is the #1 announcement for me. And I do believe that Scarlet will have a MASSIVE effect on indie filmmaking across the world. Most indie filmmakers will be "like a rat up a drainpipe" when it comes to making this camera work for their production. I'm not sure how most will overcome the limitations of the fixed 8X lens, but where there's a will there's always a way. So I'm not underestimating Scarlet. Epic is very high on my personal wish list. Start with a RED One, get a second RED One, then later upgrade one of the REDs to an Epic. Whenever you want to do impressive outdoor shots to really add to the "Wow" factor for the audience, then the perfectly-named Epic would be a must for me. But I'll stand by my statement that RED RAY is the most important RED announcement of NAB 2008. They'd already announced RED One at an earlier NAB (their most important announcement ever, in my opinion). Scarlet, the pocket professional cam, may well prove the most POPULAR of the RED products, but it won't be game-changing (like the RED One is). At the sub-$10K low end (where Scarlet is pitched) indies have had the JVC GY-HD100 (with its gorgeous 720p images) since mid-2005 and the Sony PMW-EX1 (1080p with 1/2" chips) since late-2007 (with the EX3 about to come out with its detachable lenses plus a hard drive option for longer recording times). And at the sub-$1K super-low-end you have the Canon HV20, etc. So that game has already been changed. Scarlet will IMPROVE it, perhaps even dominate it eventually, but it won't change it. Indies already can, and have, gotten theatrical release with sub-$10k cameras. ("Gabriel" obtained a recent theatrical run in Australia, for example. Shot on JVC GY-HD100 series cameras.) The big indie game-changer from this NAB is RED RAY. How did Gabriel get its theatrical release? They transferred it to film, of course. How did "Kenny" (a massive Aussie indie hit shot "documentary-style" on a PD 150!!!) get its theatrical release? Transferred to film. The words "transfer to film" are the biggest block to viable distribution of indie movies. In a post last year, I mentioned the three key areas for an indie to bring his/her work before a viable audience: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....8&postcount=22 They are: NLE, CAMERA and ACCESS TO DIGITAL CINEMA. (And that "access" breaks down into two areas: a) player and b) projector.) Apple are the kings of the indie NLE (Final Cut Studio). RED are the kings of the indie camera (RED One). And RED RAY may well prove to be the "battering ram" that solves access to digital cinema for indies. It's the game changer. Right now, I would just about "kill" for an immediate five or six of these RED RAY players. I've got my 720p24 indie movie, which I'll have to a final, releasable cut in about six weeks or so. I know of one local cinema chain which does have digital projectors installed (whether they are SD or HD I do not know - yet). I also have no idea what sort of players they have connected to the projectors (and neither did the individual theatre operators when spoken to by phone!). So there is a real and immediate void to be filled (media format and player), especially for those with 2K and 4K content! Affordable, quality 4K projectors are the other part of the puzzle to be put into place.

April 25th, 2008, 06:24 PM	#2
Jon Fairhurst Trustee Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 1,072	Great analysis. Keep in mind that Regal Cinemas is in the process of changing out all of its film projectors for digital ones. Delivery will be on LTO tape. (They considered hard drives, but figured that their young employees might be tempted to take them to upgrade their computers.) So... rather than a film transfer, one can consider a 2K or 4K JPEG-2000 render to LTO tape. I don't know if any licenses are involved or if you can skip the DRM and provide copy protection by personally managing the tape. Of course, it could be hell to try to confirm compatibility - you don't want to fly to a festival, insert tape and see an error message! Burning a disc, testing it on your RED RAY and bringing both to the festival is MUCH simpler. But once you start talking real distribution, I think the LTO/JPEG-2000 solution is the way to go, simply because somebody with a financial interest will be likely to demand copy protection. Another advantage of LTO/JPEG-2000 is that the system has internationalization features. One tape can serve global markets with alternate audio, versions and subtitles. __________________ Jon Fairhurst FRESH FILMS WEEKLY AT COLONELCRUSH.COM.

April 25th, 2008, 06:30 PM	#4
David Knaggs Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 409	Thanks, Jon. I'll look into the LTO solution (after all, RED RAY won't be ready until early 2009!). I really appreciate the tip.

April 25th, 2008, 06:45 PM	#6
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,766	With a 35mm adapter you can put any lens you want on the 35mm adapter.

April 25th, 2008, 06:54 PM	#7
David Knaggs Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 409	Thanks, Glenn. I haven't used a 35mm adapter, but I'd always assumed they only took primes, not zooms. My bad!

April 26th, 2008, 06:20 PM	#10
Brian Drysdale Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 1,004	The DCI system will be the standard. That's not to say that if your local cinema with a 2k projector can't input from another source. The local art house cinema here projected digital shorts on their 2k projector from a feed out off a laptop. However, that's a one off screening and getting distribution for an indie feature is entirely another matter and RED RAY won't get the bums on seats that theatre owners need (usually 15 to 25 year old popcorn eaters). That'll require marketing and a product that the audiences wish to see.