24 fps editing?

[Shawn McBee]

With the new 24fps MiniDV cam coming out, I was wondering what editing system(s) will allow you to edit actual 24fps dv without converting to NTSC or PAL and then outputting back to 24fps. I know Avid Filmcomposer handles 24 fps (obviously) but I don't think it accepts the DV format.

Can anyone help me out?

-Shawn

[Rob Lohman]

I don't think DV (currently) supports 24 fps. So the DV editors
out there won't either. If I understood it correctly the camera
shoots 24 fps but converts it to PAL/NTSC to stay withing the
DV specs. You will need to do a 3:2 pulldown to get back to 24
fps.

[Adrian Douglas]

Apple has an FCP package called 'Cinema Tools' that allows 24fps editing but it aint cheap US$2000 including FCP3 or $1000 on it's own. Check it out at the Apple website.

http://www.apple.com/cinematools/

[Shawn McBee]

The cinematools is just like a feature on the Avid XPressDV Powerpack, but it's real function is to create an EDL for film editing rather than actually editing at native 24fps, which doesn't help. I'm looking for a native 24fps dv solution because I think I may have figured out how to film 24fps with my XL1 (I have yet to test it, which is a few thousand dollars away - but i may actually be able to make the XL1 a variable frame-rate camera). If I were to take 24fps DV and convert to NTSC (or PAL) for editing and then output the final product to 24fps in Avid, would there be any loss of quality or any weird motion resulting?

-Shawn

[Don Donatello]

the 24p dv panasonic does not record to tape at 24fps .. it adds the" 3:2 " so it lays to tape NTSC 60i ( just like they do when they transfer 24fps FILM to TAPE)... when you edit - you are editing interlace video ...

when you need to go to FILM than you would remove the 3:2 to end up with 24fps ... normal TV's , monitors canNOT play back 24fps they need 29.97 ( 30fps) ....

[Joe Redifer]

Yeah but all NLE's do dissolves, fades and other stuff (title scrolls, etc) at 60i, which looks HORRIBLY BAD when the original production was shot at 30fps or 24fps. The NLE's need to have a user option to select what frame rate the rendered stuff happens at.

[Rob Lohman]

Jedi.... this is a hard question to answer, because at this moment
there is no true 24 fps DV camera available to test this. You could
perhaps construct an artificial 24 fps DV AVI file... In fact, this
should be very possible. I will need to run some test of this
though. Then you can test whether any NLE can process the
file. Let me run some tests first at home.

[Shawn McBee]

That would be really cool, Rob. Thanks,

Shawn

[Rob Lohman]

I was home from work last night at 10:00 PM (or 22:00 hours)
so I hadn't time to test. Will do so this weekend though. Hold
on a little bit longer.

[Rob Lohman]

Shawn,

I did my tests and these are my conclusions:

- DV does not seem to store the actual FPS or at least
Adobe Premiere 6 doesn't care about it
- If you alter the framerate of the AVI file (without changing
anything else, see below) the files does play faster/slower
and Premiere has no problems whatsoever with it
- If you want to output at a different FPS we need to alter
premiere's templates. This is possible.

Good news all-in-all. I used a little program called avifrate
to change an AVI's FPS without re-rendering it to test all
of this. You can find the program here:
http://www.inmatrix.com/files/avifrate_download.shtml

So if you where able to really construct a variable rate camera
we'd probably need this little utility to change the AVI since
it will probably contain the wrong FPS otherwise. And we need
to change some templates.....

If you want/need to know more you know where to find me.
I'm very interested in what you've come up with on your side!

Cheers!

[Shawn McBee]

Thanks so much for the info, Rob. I'll keep you updated as I do more research on this.

-Shawn

Just me thinking loud....



If the camera records 24fps (progressive). Then if I was to edit it with a standard DV system, I would go with PAL 25fps progressive settings (because the close fps match). Imagine that the 24p camera puts ever first frame after 24 on a 25th (don't know if this is the case). Then we would slow down the movie 4%, and after that, if we were to blow it up to film the movie would be 4% faster -Back to real 24p again without any loss what so ever in frames or quality. 24p will still be 24p if edited in a 24p System, so in order to have it for anything else than 24p or cinema you would still do the speed change.

Isn't the speed change always there when real film is transfered to video?

I've heard about movies shot on 24p and then edited on standard DV-Systems -offline, in low resolution and then batch outputted to 24p. So it must work.

I don't think that this is much of a problem, really. Isn't it basicly the same problem as the "video to film" problem. Or rather method than problem.

But then again this is just me thinking loud.


Regards,

Erik T

[Howard Phillips]

In v11 version of Avid editing systems, like FilmComposer Media Composers and Symphony, there's now a Firewire-In and Out via the BOB. Here's from their site:

"The new versions of Media Composer and Avid Xpress systems feature an option that enables native support of DV-format media, including input and output of DV25 media through a standard IEEE 1394 (FireWire) connection.."

Assuming the Panasonic 24p mini_DV generates a consistent 'pulldown' onto the tape, this should be a perfect match, with Avid 24p projects removing the extra fields the way it currently does for any other 24fps-NTSC project.
There's also a harware option with FCP, using a CinéWave board to remove the extra fields, to capture & edit at 24fps.

[Rob Lohman]

Erik,

Editing a true 24 FPS DV source is not a problem, at least not
with Premiere. This is what my tests brought to light. It does
require the editing of a profile, but that is quite easy.

The problem is getting the camera to output anything else. Shawn
seems to have a lead on this and is working on it. I'm eager
to learn what he comes up with.

Cheers!

[Martin Munthe]

Erik,

You and I are fortunate to be in a PAL 25fps world. NTSC 29.97fps offers a much bigger problem in a 24fps situation. You have to start thinking 2:3 pulldown for those guys across the Atlantic. Most Swedish HD films are actually shot in 25p (like Den Osynlige and Livvakterna). Most of the 16/35mm films are shot in 25fps with a 3.3333% tonal pitch for theatrical release (24fps projected).

Rob,

You can't output the 24fps to a monitor can you? It's all CPU, right?

Rumours say Apple will be releasing a 24p DV codec for FCP. This way you will capture 24, edit 24 and output 24 much like the Aurora Igniter Film option or the Avid Filmcomposer.