Competition (and more about Frame Mode)

[Riley Harmon]

At 4K for the lower end this could be big competition for the dvx100, fx1, etc
the high end is also respectable competition for the hvx200

well done canon on stirring things up, we'll see what's to come with many tests and footage uploads

[Bob Zimmerman]

Barry Green doesn't think we will ever see a DVX100 that has 16:9. If we want that with a panny we have to get the HVX200. Sorry I don't want P2. If I can raise $4,000 the Canon will get shipped here. It sounds pretty good at this point,,,but it is still a few months out.

[David Ziegelheim]

For SD, you don't need P2 cards with the HVX200.

The biggest decision with the Canon (and Sony) HD cameras is giving up progressive 24p images. However, the Canon has the highest resolution of all the sub-$10k HD camcorders (1440x1080).

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by David Ziegelheim

The biggest decision with the Canon (and Sony) HD cameras is giving up progressive 24p images.

You're not giving up progressive 24p with Canon Frame mode. For all intents and purposes, it is 24p. Most people who have used it can't tell the difference between 24F and 24p. Don't make the mistake of dismissing it without seeing it for yourself.

[Josh Dahlberg]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Most people who have used it can't tell the difference between 24F and 24p.

Hi Chris, I love the look of these new Canons... they've just shot to the top of my must have list (was going to get an H1, but I figure I'd be better off with two of these babies).

I guess you're rightly sick to death of frame mode questions, but I'm a little confused by your sentence, because it suggests expert eyes *could* in fact tell the difference, however subtle. Do you just mean the difference in res (800 lines horizontal vs 540 according to Adam's review), or some other difference? I was under the impression the cadence/effect was identical.

[Chris Hurd]

Expert eyes like Adam Wilt's could spot the difference, because Adam is a Princeton trained engineer who knows what to look for. Sit with him sometime and you'll be amazed at what he can see. It's all fairly subjective, except when some implementation really leaps out at you, like Sony's CineFrame 24. Now that's onbvious, even I can tell. But as for Canon Frame mode, I would not be able to pick it out from progressive scan. Like I said, basically it is progressive scan, they just can't call it that. I think way too much hype is built up around "true" vs. "fake" progressive scan, as if the difference is as black and white as those words are. Nonsense, that's marketing baloney. All that matters is, how does it look? Forget about how it's made, your audience doesn't care. What they care about is what it looks like (oh, and the story, they care about that too). The fact is, if it looks like a duck, if it eats and quacks like a duck... if it walks like a duck, then it's a duck. Canon Frame mode walks like a duck.

[David Ziegelheim]

With there 1440x1080 chips (with green shift?) do they just upres a single interlaced frame? Wouldn't that give them the same vertical resolution as the HVX200 with greater horizontal resolution?

[Chris Hurd]

Canon will not say how they're doing it.

Which is fine by me, because speaking from the viewpoint of a message board administrator, it allows us to talk more about what we're actually doing with this technology rather than debating how this stuff works... keeping the measurebating at a minimum, hopefully.

[David Ziegelheim]

Doesn't the BBC and some of the magazines do tests that determine the effective resolution. I thought on determined that the H1 was around 540 lines in 24f mode.

The G1 is a little pricey, but the A1 could really fill a void that the Z1 doesn't quite handle.

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by Bob Zimmerman

Barry Green doesn't think we will ever see a DVX100 that has 16:9.

Not a standard-def one, no. I can't see them bringing a new standard-def DVX to market. Now, an AVC-HD one, maybe. But not standard-def.

[Josh Dahlberg]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Canon Frame mode walks like a duck.

Thanks Chris, though I have have a feeling these cameras are gonna fly.

[Thomas Smet]

The thing that matters to me the most about how 24F works is that it actually does use the progressive form of mpeg-2 chroma sampling. This form of chroma sampling is much better than the interlaced form. You get true 2x2 pixel blocks of color which are a lot easier to deal with.

[Chris Hurd]

Good point Thomas... that's why I've been saying, Frame Mode *is* progressive, for all practical purposes.

[Riley Harmon]

these cameras have a big potential, the interlaced vs progressive talk all the time is ridiculous if you ask me. I used to be all gooogly eyed when I'd see a progressive scan image, but now with knowledge of post workflows, I can get the exact same image with the same resolution, so whether the camera does it for me or I do it, depends on how lazy/pressed for time I am that day. :-)

i love the analogies about skill over equipment, and its true, all these classmates in my photo lighting class have $$$ invested in their stuff, and I have a little POS vivitar slr I stole from my sister and a $20 ebay lens from Sears, but yet my images always turn out great, why...because I have the knowledge of how to push it, but....it doesnt hurt to have good equipment either, i've gone off on a tangent now,

my only beef with canon dv cameras is that in my experience, the tape head/drives efff up alot, have they fixed that with HDV?

[Matthew Kent]

Many of you have probably seen this already, but just to be redundant, and to also illustrate how beautiful 24f recording looks, go here, and watch the short scene. If the A1 has a similar look and feel to the H1, and can possibly capture stuff like this, I'm going to be in heaven once I get one!!!

Thanks to Robert for posting this stuff.