Can You Capture HDMI at 1080p24? at DVinfo.net

David Ziegelheim · October 5th, 2006, 09:39 AM

I thought HDMI only supported 720p and 1080i. Is there a 2:3 pulldown?

Thanks,

David

P.S.
Second question: what is the color space on HDMI: 4:2:2, 4:2:0, or something else?

David Ziegelheim · October 5th, 2006, 09:44 AM

Think I got my answer...yes, the HDMI is 2:3 pulldown, and yes, it is 4:2:2 10-bit.

John Benton · October 5th, 2006, 10:59 AM

Yes, but HOW?
Do you need a desktop with extra Video card or is there a laptop solution to record it with a less compressed codec?

J

Ray Bell · October 5th, 2006, 11:20 AM

A desktop with a black magic HDMI card and a couple large hard drives...

The cards are due out this month....

David Ziegelheim · October 5th, 2006, 09:15 PM

The question is whether Cineform will support the BlackMagic HDMI card. If they do, the hardware requirement goes down signficantly.

The card will need a RAID array.However you get uncompressed 1920x1080 4:2:2 10-bit video (vs compressed 1440x1080 4:2:0 8-bit) with uncompressed audio (vs. MPEG 1). And you still have the HDV option on for handheld and run and gun.

It makes you wonder if Canon, Panasonic, and JVC will add HDMI to their lower cost camera.

Ainslie Davies · October 5th, 2006, 09:19 PM

Can you also you the HDMI on new video cards or is that only for output? Are we sure that it will be full 1920x1080 over HDMI as another thread about this says it will still be 1440x1080..?

Ray Bell · October 5th, 2006, 09:50 PM

We are being told that the HDMI output is un-compressed... 1920x1080
4:2:2 10 bit....

The camera sends to tape/hard drive (optional) or both compressed at the
normal HD of 1440x1080 so the tapes/hard drive data can be played back
on other cameras/gear......

pretty nice...:-)

Thomas Smet · October 5th, 2006, 10:37 PM

You do not need to wait for Cineform. Blackmagic has a new mjpeg codec for HD thats gives 1920x1080 4:2:2 in AVI files that are around 11 MB/S. It isn't exactly at that rate because the codec is variable and so the files will be larger depending on how complex the scene is. If you are shooting bluescreen elements the file size should be smaller because most of the image is made up of a solid color. If you are shooting a jungle during a huricane (good luck getting your computer water proof) the file size will be larger due to how complex the video is. The codec allows HD at near uncompressed visual quality in a file size that will fit on a single SATA hard drive. Cineform may have a slight edge in quality due to waveform compression but you do not have to wait around for it to support the Blackmagic cards.

The mjpeg codec is much much better than HDV and only shows a slight reduction in quality when compared to 8 bit uncompressed HD. It is a standard Windows AVI codec that uses VFW and Directshow versions of the codec which means pretty much any NLE should be able to read the files. I for one can confirm that Avid Liquid which is known to only use very specific file formats can load AVI files using the mjpeg codec and not only load the video but play and edit it in realtime as a native Liquid format.

The Intensity card uses the HDMI 1.2 spec which is limited to 24bit color or 8 bits per channel. You will not get 10 bit HD with HDMI and Intensity.

Ainslie Davies · October 5th, 2006, 10:51 PM

What about a PCMCIA verson of that (the Blackmagic Intensity) or external enclosure for laptop use? How long can HDMI cable runs be, 10m max? Could be a problem on location.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · October 5th, 2006, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ainslie Davies

How long can HDMI cable runs be, 10m max? Could be a problem on location.

I'm aware of 600' HDMI cables that have been successfully tested with soon-to-be-announced products. However, the HDMI 1.2 spec claims that cables of only up to 15 metres have been tested to spec. I can't comment on that cuz I don't know who tested those, nor do I know who made the 600' cable that I'm aware of.

Ainslie Davies · October 5th, 2006, 11:47 PM

Right, thanks for that :-). If I want to monitor via HDMI and capture via HDMI, is there any solution for that?

Douglas Spotted Eagle · October 5th, 2006, 11:52 PM

Gefen and Kramer both manufacture HDMI splitters, so you can monitor and send a feed elsewhere. I'm not aware of an HDMI box that will work with a laptop, however (not yet, anyway).

Barry Green · October 6th, 2006, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Bell

We are being told that the HDMI output is un-compressed... 1920x1080
4:2:2 10 bit....

Its HDMI isn't 1920x1080, it's 1440x1080. Also, where did it say anything about 10-bit? I haven't seen that, but that would be very nice. Is it a full 10 bits wide? The Canon outputs HDSDI at "10 bits" but it's really an 8-bit signal with the bottom two bits forced to zero.

Ainslie Davies · October 6th, 2006, 12:41 AM

According to Thomas...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

The Intensity card uses the HDMI 1.2 spec which is limited to 24bit color or 8 bits per channel. You will not get 10 bit HD with HDMI and Intensity.

...so just 8bit - 1920x1080 4:2:2 though which is lovely, If I could only come up with a workable portable HDMI recording system, I guess a full PC would work... damn AC power

Marcus Marchesseault · October 6th, 2006, 02:19 AM

You don't necessarily need AC power. Computers use DC and there are DC-to-DC power supplies available. They are generally intended for car computers, but it may someday work for battery-operated desktop-replacement machines that would work for our purposes. The problem is that powerful CPUs use too much juice for most of these DC-DC supplies.

Concerning batteries, there is a NiMH battery pack that can do over 250Watts for one hour that costs $270. It weighs about 8 pounds (3.5 kilos) and a charger us under $30. I'm sure it is possible to do it much cheaper if you are willing to use heavy lead-acid batteries. I'll say that a computer that could do the job would cost about $2000 with Intensity card and battery.

If DC-DC power supplies are insufficient, there are power inverters for about $40 that can make the AC for a regular power supply.

Considering the capabilities we are talking about, 4:2:2 uncompressed, some inconvenience is no big deal considering all this can be done for under $10K. I think the ability to revert to 4:2:0 HDV when extreme portability is needed is a great fallback and makes the V1 system incredibly versatile.

I feel like I am on the verge of a new era...

October 5th, 2006, 09:39 AM	#1
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	Can You Capture HDMI at 1080p24? I thought HDMI only supported 720p and 1080i. Is there a 2:3 pulldown? Thanks, David P.S. Second question: what is the color space on HDMI: 4:2:2, 4:2:0, or something else?

October 5th, 2006, 09:19 PM	#6
Ainslie Davies Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 117	Can you also you the HDMI on new video cards or is that only for output? Are we sure that it will be full 1920x1080 over HDMI as another thread about this says it will still be 1440x1080..? __________________ Ainslie Davies - www.dualityproductions.com

October 5th, 2006, 10:51 PM	#9
Ainslie Davies Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 117	What about a PCMCIA verson of that (the Blackmagic Intensity) or external enclosure for laptop use? How long can HDMI cable runs be, 10m max? Could be a problem on location. __________________ Ainslie Davies - www.dualityproductions.com

October 5th, 2006, 11:47 PM	#11
Ainslie Davies Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 117	Right, thanks for that :-). If I want to monitor via HDMI and capture via HDMI, is there any solution for that? __________________ Ainslie Davies - www.dualityproductions.com

October 5th, 2006, 11:52 PM	#12
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Gefen and Kramer both manufacture HDMI splitters, so you can monitor and send a feed elsewhere. I'm not aware of an HDMI box that will work with a laptop, however (not yet, anyway). __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

October 5th, 2006, 09:44 AM	#2
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	Think I got my answer...yes, the HDMI is 2:3 pulldown, and yes, it is 4:2:2 10-bit.

October 5th, 2006, 10:59 AM	#3
John Benton Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 658	Yes, but HOW? Do you need a desktop with extra Video card or is there a laptop solution to record it with a less compressed codec? J

October 5th, 2006, 11:20 AM	#4
Ray Bell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,414	A desktop with a black magic HDMI card and a couple large hard drives... The cards are due out this month....

October 5th, 2006, 09:15 PM	#5
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	The question is whether Cineform will support the BlackMagic HDMI card. If they do, the hardware requirement goes down signficantly. The card will need a RAID array.However you get uncompressed 1920x1080 4:2:2 10-bit video (vs compressed 1440x1080 4:2:0 8-bit) with uncompressed audio (vs. MPEG 1). And you still have the HDV option on for handheld and run and gun. It makes you wonder if Canon, Panasonic, and JVC will add HDMI to their lower cost camera.

October 5th, 2006, 09:50 PM	#7
Ray Bell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,414	We are being told that the HDMI output is un-compressed... 1920x1080 4:2:2 10 bit.... The camera sends to tape/hard drive (optional) or both compressed at the normal HD of 1440x1080 so the tapes/hard drive data can be played back on other cameras/gear...... pretty nice...:-)

October 5th, 2006, 10:37 PM	#8
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	You do not need to wait for Cineform. Blackmagic has a new mjpeg codec for HD thats gives 1920x1080 4:2:2 in AVI files that are around 11 MB/S. It isn't exactly at that rate because the codec is variable and so the files will be larger depending on how complex the scene is. If you are shooting bluescreen elements the file size should be smaller because most of the image is made up of a solid color. If you are shooting a jungle during a huricane (good luck getting your computer water proof) the file size will be larger due to how complex the video is. The codec allows HD at near uncompressed visual quality in a file size that will fit on a single SATA hard drive. Cineform may have a slight edge in quality due to waveform compression but you do not have to wait around for it to support the Blackmagic cards. The mjpeg codec is much much better than HDV and only shows a slight reduction in quality when compared to 8 bit uncompressed HD. It is a standard Windows AVI codec that uses VFW and Directshow versions of the codec which means pretty much any NLE should be able to read the files. I for one can confirm that Avid Liquid which is known to only use very specific file formats can load AVI files using the mjpeg codec and not only load the video but play and edit it in realtime as a native Liquid format. The Intensity card uses the HDMI 1.2 spec which is limited to 24bit color or 8 bits per channel. You will not get 10 bit HD with HDMI and Intensity.

October 6th, 2006, 02:19 AM	#15
Marcus Marchesseault Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 1,961	You don't necessarily need AC power. Computers use DC and there are DC-to-DC power supplies available. They are generally intended for car computers, but it may someday work for battery-operated desktop-replacement machines that would work for our purposes. The problem is that powerful CPUs use too much juice for most of these DC-DC supplies. Concerning batteries, there is a NiMH battery pack that can do over 250Watts for one hour that costs $270. It weighs about 8 pounds (3.5 kilos) and a charger us under $30. I'm sure it is possible to do it much cheaper if you are willing to use heavy lead-acid batteries. I'll say that a computer that could do the job would cost about $2000 with Intensity card and battery. If DC-DC power supplies are insufficient, there are power inverters for about $40 that can make the AC for a regular power supply. Considering the capabilities we are talking about, 4:2:2 uncompressed, some inconvenience is no big deal considering all this can be done for under $10K. I think the ability to revert to 4:2:0 HDV when extreme portability is needed is a great fallback and makes the V1 system incredibly versatile. I feel like I am on the verge of a new era...