Anyone compared the HV20 spec's to the HDR-HC7 spec's?

Fergus Anderson · February 12th, 2007, 04:27 PM

I have used both the HC1 and HC3 and I own an HV10 and I personally much prefer the colour on the Canon. The reds and yellows are much more natural to my eyes - the saturation just seems a touch high on the sony models. It will be interesting to see how the HC7 fares

Paulo Teixeira · February 12th, 2007, 04:36 PM

Between the HV10 and the HC3, I would have also chosen the HV10.
The camcorders this time are much more different.

Ken Ross · February 12th, 2007, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira

Once x.v.color is enabled on the camcorder and hooked up to an HDMI 1.3 complaint HD TV, that’s a different story.

Only we don't know what that story is. As I said, the HDMI committee has been very good at marketing hype, but hasn't delivered much other than HDMI hassles that most people have had to go through to get HDMI devices to work and communicate properly with each other. For the average consumer, HDMI has been a nightmare.

So will it bring improvement in color with HDMI 1.3 displays? Nobody has any idea. What we do know is that their website is filled with exaggerations.

Glen Kim · February 12th, 2007, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Budworth

I was just wondering if anyone has done a side-by-side comparison of the published HV20 spec's to those of the HDR-HC7. I was hoping some of you veteran HD camcorder folks could point out the advantages of each. I'm not sure the Canon forum is the best place to get an unbiased opinion, but I wasn't sure where else to post this question.

There *is* a Sony board on this site as well. Either way, you'll get your share of "unbiased" responses. ;)

One difference between the two that doesn't seem to come up often is that still images are stored on a Memory Stick for the Sony camcorder and miniSD card for the Canon one.

Your mileage may vary but personally, I'm not a fan of Memory Sticks, even if the performance is *slightly* better (with the Pro Duo). I have miniSD cards for other devices and would like to stick with those for the time being. The last thing I need is to have *another* type of card to look for in my house.

This may be a trivial point but it's one of those little pet peeves. :)

Paulo Teixeira · February 14th, 2007, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Ross

So will it bring improvement in color with HDMI 1.3 displays? Nobody has any idea. What we do know is that their website is filled with exaggerations.

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=86502

Ken Ross · February 14th, 2007, 12:11 PM

Paul, even the posted pix on the Sony site are so subtle, it's nothing you couldn't get with a slight adjustment of the color intensity or hue control. In fact, it's really impossible to tell which picture more faithfully reproduces the colors as they were. I will tell you this, I shot the footage at Best Buy with the "XV" color on and off. I could see little to no difference on my plasma. I honestly see little to be gained from this addition. Perhaps with an HDMI 1.3 display the differences might be greater, but judging from those pictures on the Sony site, I doubt it.

Paulo Teixeira · February 14th, 2007, 12:20 PM

I hope you’re not referring to the link I just posted today because it’s not a Sony site, it’s the Watch.impress site.
Again, I have always said you need a compatible TV to really view the differences.

Ken Ross · February 14th, 2007, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira

I hope you’re not referring to the link I just posted today because it’s not a Sony site, it’s the Watch.impress site.
Again, I have always said you need a compatible TV to really view the differences.

Yes, I am referring to those. Remember I'm also judging by these pictures from that link. The changes in the colors on the flowers were subtle at best. I'm assuming these pictures were designed to show the difference. All they did was give me the impression of a monitor that was adjusted slightly in its hue & color intensity.....something you could do now with any camera.

I honestly don't see this as a meaningful improvement in picture quality. I'd like to see lower noise in the camera. My A/Bs at Best Buy showed the Canon counterpart, the HV10, to be significantly quieter with more depth and an overall more professional looking picture.

Thomas Smet · February 14th, 2007, 02:07 PM

I highly doubt anybody is ever going to be able to sit down and say "hey that looks like it was shot with X.v color." This is such a silly thing to be concerned about on a camera. There is far more that will mess up your image then color that may be 1% off. Even then it is sort of a subjective point of view on what makes better color. Remember the human eye isn't very good with colors so to me this seems like more of a marketing stint then anything that is going to make a huge difference that stands out right away. Sure if you stick two displays side by side some people may notice but watching something on it's own nobody will ever be able to tell.

I think we are all starting to read into numbers way too much with this stuff. I mean it was fun at first but even I am starting to get sick of this garbage. Here is the thing, even if Ken doesn't have a HDMI 1.3 display to me it doesn't matter. The fact is that his display looked great regardless of what color format was used and thats the point here. It looks great to almost everybody watching it in the current way. I don't see anybody ever complaining about something as silly as this.

Why are there still all these topics in the Canon forum about non Canon cameras? I mean come on Paul. It sure does seem like you are here trying to steer as many people as you can away from the HV20.

Pieter Jongerius · February 15th, 2007, 03:00 PM

Me myself I am very interested in color theory (interested mostly as set apart from knowledgeable :). It is a fact that sRGB has a limited color range and that the human eye can see many colors that simply cannot be reproduced by adding quantities of the fixed R, G and B wavelenghts.

The key to understanding xvYCC is in 3D color space (yes, to boldly go...). I found this page to be helpful:

http://bsg.to/mt/archives/200607/2006-07-08T11:51.shtml
I did not try to have it translated.

Search for "Laser TV". Above that you will see two images. On the left, the RGB color range in 3D. On the right a flat image of that, with the indication that xvYCC can reach into the corners of that rectangle, beyond the RGB box. In fact, chroma values are luma-independed if I may believe this.

So if it seems to be superior, why don't we see the difference? I guess because we are watching all this superior stuff on RGB displays. Like trying to listen to stereo music, throug a single speaker. Maybe, just maybe, come display embedded color profiling may be able to get xvYCC sources to display slightly better because of specific knowledge of the exact primary colors used in that display.

But for the real gain, we should look at this stuff at displays capable of xvYCC reproduction. I think a web search on Laser TV should get me started... later!

----------
Edit: Laser TV may not be the thing before 2099... Maybe LED backlit screens are closer to release.

Paulo Teixeira · February 15th, 2007, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

Why are there still all these topics in the Canon forum about non Canon cameras? I mean come on Paul. It sure does seem like you are here trying to steer as many people as you can away from the HV20.

As everybody keep pointing it out, you do need the proper display to notice the difference if your camcorder has x.v.color.

This thread was about the differences between the HC7 and the HV20. It was never just about the HV20 to begin with, was it? No. Also, I never said the HC7 was a better camcorder than the HV20. I said it was a tossup and I would have trouble choosing between them. As I said in another post, I would rather purchase the JVC HD7 than any of these because it has features that I like. Besides, I wasn’t even the one that started this thread.

Ken Ross · February 15th, 2007, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira

As everybody keep pointing it out, you do need the proper display to notice the difference if your camcorder has x.v.color.

But Paul, I keep mentioning that the posted pictures in your link ALREADY show what the differences are supposed to look like. I think you'll agree they're very subtle at best and nothing that couldn't be achieved with a slight increase in color saturation on your display device.

Paulo Teixeira · February 15th, 2007, 04:08 PM

One of the reasons I posted that link was to show that the author saw a big difference with a compatible screen. Basically your colors is increased by 1.8X but the camcorder most likely have very bad auto focusing and since the Canon HV20 will beat it hands down in that category, it really wouldn’t make a difference which one you buy even if you do have an HDMI 1.3 complaint screen. If one of them had a focusing ring around the lens, then that's the one I would recommend.

February 12th, 2007, 04:36 PM	#17
Paulo Teixeira Trustee Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,773	Between the HV10 and the HC3, I would have also chosen the HV10. The camcorders this time are much more different. __________________ https://www.youtube.com/user/PhotoVi...esEtc/featured https://www.pond5.com/artist/paulot

February 14th, 2007, 12:20 PM	#22
Paulo Teixeira Trustee Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,773	I hope you’re not referring to the link I just posted today because it’s not a Sony site, it’s the Watch.impress site. Again, I have always said you need a compatible TV to really view the differences. __________________ https://www.youtube.com/user/PhotoVi...esEtc/featured https://www.pond5.com/artist/paulot

February 15th, 2007, 04:08 PM	#28
Paulo Teixeira Trustee Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,773	One of the reasons I posted that link was to show that the author saw a big difference with a compatible screen. Basically your colors is increased by 1.8X but the camcorder most likely have very bad auto focusing and since the Canon HV20 will beat it hands down in that category, it really wouldn’t make a difference which one you buy even if you do have an HDMI 1.3 complaint screen. If one of them had a focusing ring around the lens, then that's the one I would recommend. __________________ https://www.youtube.com/user/PhotoVi...esEtc/featured https://www.pond5.com/artist/paulot

February 12th, 2007, 04:27 PM	#16
Fergus Anderson Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London, UK Posts: 321	I have used both the HC1 and HC3 and I own an HV10 and I personally much prefer the colour on the Canon. The reds and yellows are much more natural to my eyes - the saturation just seems a touch high on the sony models. It will be interesting to see how the HC7 fares

February 14th, 2007, 12:11 PM	#21
Ken Ross Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New York Posts: 1,945	Paul, even the posted pix on the Sony site are so subtle, it's nothing you couldn't get with a slight adjustment of the color intensity or hue control. In fact, it's really impossible to tell which picture more faithfully reproduces the colors as they were. I will tell you this, I shot the footage at Best Buy with the "XV" color on and off. I could see little to no difference on my plasma. I honestly see little to be gained from this addition. Perhaps with an HDMI 1.3 display the differences might be greater, but judging from those pictures on the Sony site, I doubt it.

February 14th, 2007, 02:07 PM	#24
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	I highly doubt anybody is ever going to be able to sit down and say "hey that looks like it was shot with X.v color." This is such a silly thing to be concerned about on a camera. There is far more that will mess up your image then color that may be 1% off. Even then it is sort of a subjective point of view on what makes better color. Remember the human eye isn't very good with colors so to me this seems like more of a marketing stint then anything that is going to make a huge difference that stands out right away. Sure if you stick two displays side by side some people may notice but watching something on it's own nobody will ever be able to tell. I think we are all starting to read into numbers way too much with this stuff. I mean it was fun at first but even I am starting to get sick of this garbage. Here is the thing, even if Ken doesn't have a HDMI 1.3 display to me it doesn't matter. The fact is that his display looked great regardless of what color format was used and thats the point here. It looks great to almost everybody watching it in the current way. I don't see anybody ever complaining about something as silly as this. Why are there still all these topics in the Canon forum about non Canon cameras? I mean come on Paul. It sure does seem like you are here trying to steer as many people as you can away from the HV20.

February 15th, 2007, 03:00 PM	#25
Pieter Jongerius Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 101	Me myself I am very interested in color theory (interested mostly as set apart from knowledgeable :). It is a fact that sRGB has a limited color range and that the human eye can see many colors that simply cannot be reproduced by adding quantities of the fixed R, G and B wavelenghts. The key to understanding xvYCC is in 3D color space (yes, to boldly go...). I found this page to be helpful: http://bsg.to/mt/archives/200607/2006-07-08T11:51.shtml I did not try to have it translated. Search for "Laser TV". Above that you will see two images. On the left, the RGB color range in 3D. On the right a flat image of that, with the indication that xvYCC can reach into the corners of that rectangle, beyond the RGB box. In fact, chroma values are luma-independed if I may believe this. So if it seems to be superior, why don't we see the difference? I guess because we are watching all this superior stuff on RGB displays. Like trying to listen to stereo music, throug a single speaker. Maybe, just maybe, come display embedded color profiling may be able to get xvYCC sources to display slightly better because of specific knowledge of the exact primary colors used in that display. But for the real gain, we should look at this stuff at displays capable of xvYCC reproduction. I think a web search on Laser TV should get me started... later! ---------- Edit: Laser TV may not be the thing before 2099... Maybe LED backlit screens are closer to release.