Sony-Canon-JVC-Sharp HD Format Agreement at DVinfo.net

Frank Granovski · July 4th, 2003, 12:13 AM

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Pr...0307/03-0704E/

Ken Tanaka · July 4th, 2003, 01:02 AM

Very interesting and very encouraging. Let's hope that this standardization comes to fruition.

Thanks for the heads-up, Frank!

Chris Hurd · July 4th, 2003, 01:09 AM

Very interesting indeed! Hmm, the shape of things to come, perhaps? To be known as HDV, to record on standard Mini-DV cassettes as well. Japanese press release from Canon Japan:

http://web.canon.jp/pressrelease/2003/hdv.html

See also http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/english/press/2003/hdv.html

Adrian Douglas · July 4th, 2003, 08:52 AM

The Canon Japan press release says basically the same thing as the Sony release. Maybe we will see an HD XL2.

Vladimir Koifman · July 4th, 2003, 02:15 PM

I'm just wondering why Panasonic is not there. Do they bake something different or they just let their JVC division to test water first?

Nigel Moore · July 4th, 2003, 02:26 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Adrian Douglas : Maybe we will see an HD XL2. -->>>

That would be supersweet, but it might also herald an end to the XL line.

Michael Pappas · July 4th, 2003, 03:25 PM

It means the end of NTSC as a production tool for those that have wanted to discard it for some time but didn't have the deep pockets to do so.. As an acquisition tool this will be amazing. The fact that canon is onboard means that they will for sure have a XL1 type camera. It's a logical progression. We will all benefit.

<<<-- Originally posted by Nigel Moore : <<<-- Originally posted by Adrian Douglas : Maybe we will see an HD XL2. -->>>

That would be supersweet, but it might also herald an end to the XL line. -->>>

Adrian Douglas · July 4th, 2003, 07:11 PM

We sure will Michael. I don't know if it will be the XL2, the time frame is about right, I'm sure this HDV deal has been on the board for a while which is why Canon hasn't rushed out a 24p camera to compete with the DVX. I guess we'll find out at NAB next year. A true progressive HD XL would be great as my XL1 is starting to show it's age. Desktop HD should be in full swing by then to. The next couple of years are looking pretty damn rosey.

Mark Kubat · July 7th, 2003, 12:08 AM

Can anyone explain why JVC didn't just kill Betacam outright the first time around? Why do just a 1 CCD HDV cam?

What's all this talk that 3 CCD just "wasn't possible yet?"

Does this mean firewire as we know it is dead too since it will be MPEG2?

So USB 2.0?

I don't get it - yet.

Canon and Sony had better put 24P on their new cam as well!

Andrew Petrie · July 7th, 2003, 06:50 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Mark Kubat :
Does this mean firewire as we know it is dead too since it will be MPEG2?

So USB 2.0?

I don't get it - yet.
-->>>

800 mbps FireWire is available now, with a third revision coming in the next few years. Given the wide spread adoption and acceptance of FireWire in the professional DV world, I don't forsee any changes here. I think (or hope!) FireWire continues as the standard digital transfer method :)

Zac Stein · July 7th, 2003, 08:01 AM

As far as i can tell, it is still a dv25 standard, hence it won't need greater bandwidth yet. dv25 is 25megabit's per a second, and these standards hover around there as well. Our current equipment, except for a couple software updates are pretty much fully capable of the new standards.

Zac

Don Parrish · August 28th, 2003, 08:00 PM

Forgive me folks but I need to ask a few questions in order to continue moving forward with equipment considerations and business projections. I realize that the answers may simply not be available yet.

"25p" Is this the 24p we have all craved ?

I need a more simple explanation as to why our current gear is said to be capable of the new standard ( I believe Zac had mentioned this) . As my luck would have it FedX delivered my new A06 pioneer DVD burner about 8 hours ago, what will be it's fate?

Has a projected price / market date even remotely be suggested?

My new computer has IEEE 1394A, I believe I read that the "A" simply represents an industry standard for cables and pinouts, Any knowledge on this?

Will the existing NLE's be able to patch and handle this new format?

Thanks for any help?

Zac Stein · August 29th, 2003, 01:56 AM

heya Don,

25p simply refers to the progressive frame rate per second of PAL standard video.

I am australian, so all our video runs at 50i (fields per a second) and some camera's like the dvx100e here can capture 25p, which is 25 full frames per a second instead of 50 split fields per a second.

When video here is shot at 50i, it is capturing 50 unique fields (imagine every second line of video, horizontal and vertical*this is very simplified*) so in fact you get a very particular motion characteristic. This is a huge contributor to the so called 'video look'. You know that ultra realistic smooth and almost imediatly home footage or I am there looking stuff.

Film being the king of a market that is fueled by economics many years ago found that the slowest frame rate they can run, hence save money using less film, is 24 frames per a second and retain a smooth movement.

That of course means it is capturing 24 FULL frames per a second, no fields no muck no fuss.

Finally now cameras here are being released such as the dvx100 that in NTSC land captures at 24p then uses some funny step downs to convert it to 60i (ntsc standard) but it is not capturing 60 unique fields per a second rather splitting up 24fps into 60 fields, so it still retains the look of 24fps, which is exactly the same way film is transfered, so if you have ever seen a dvd of a movie you like, that is what was done.

In PAL land we shoot 50i, so much easier to use a standard of 25p and just split each frame into 2 fields and it will work on standard televisions. That is really it.

Not so complicated is it :)

Zac

Frank Granovski · August 29th, 2003, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Can anyone explain why JVC didn't just kill Betacam outright the first time around?

You mean Sony, don't you?

Don Parrish · August 29th, 2003, 05:50 AM

Thanks Zac,

I was just wondering about the 1 frame difference, I guess it really won't make a difference, (or will it)? I realize about the frame rate, to be able to shoot in 24p will allow us to shoot commercials with great looks and great effects without the oversharp image of 60i, but when the specs were said to be 25 I didn't know if the 1 frame difference mean't anything or not?

Also, what did you mean "Our current equipment, except for a couple software updates are pretty much fully capable of the new standards".

Any news on chip size and number? (just curious).

Thanks for the help

July 4th, 2003, 12:13 AM	#1
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	HD Format Agreement http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Pr...0307/03-0704E/

July 4th, 2003, 01:09 AM	#3
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Very interesting indeed! Hmm, the shape of things to come, perhaps? To be known as HDV, to record on standard Mini-DV cassettes as well. Japanese press release from Canon Japan: http://web.canon.jp/pressrelease/2003/hdv.html See also http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/english/press/2003/hdv.html __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 4th, 2003, 08:52 AM	#4
Adrian Douglas Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Chigasaki, Japan. Posts: 1,660	The Canon Japan press release says basically the same thing as the Sony release. Maybe we will see an HD XL2. __________________ Adrian DVInfo.net Search for quick answers Where to buy? From the best in the business...DVInfo.net sponsors

July 4th, 2003, 07:11 PM	#8
Adrian Douglas Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Chigasaki, Japan. Posts: 1,660	We sure will Michael. I don't know if it will be the XL2, the time frame is about right, I'm sure this HDV deal has been on the board for a while which is why Canon hasn't rushed out a 24p camera to compete with the DVX. I guess we'll find out at NAB next year. A true progressive HD XL would be great as my XL1 is starting to show it's age. Desktop HD should be in full swing by then to. The next couple of years are looking pretty damn rosey. __________________ Adrian DVInfo.net Search for quick answers Where to buy? From the best in the business...DVInfo.net sponsors

July 7th, 2003, 12:08 AM	#9
Mark Kubat Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 375	who will be first then with 3 CCD HD DV cam? Can anyone explain why JVC didn't just kill Betacam outright the first time around? Why do just a 1 CCD HDV cam? What's all this talk that 3 CCD just "wasn't possible yet?" Does this mean firewire as we know it is dead too since it will be MPEG2? So USB 2.0? I don't get it - yet. Canon and Sony had better put 24P on their new cam as well!

July 4th, 2003, 01:02 AM	#2
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Very interesting and very encouraging. Let's hope that this standardization comes to fruition. Thanks for the heads-up, Frank!

July 4th, 2003, 02:15 PM	#5
Vladimir Koifman Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Israel Posts: 115	I'm just wondering why Panasonic is not there. Do they bake something different or they just let their JVC division to test water first?

July 4th, 2003, 02:26 PM	#6
Nigel Moore Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Switzerland Posts: 358	<<<-- Originally posted by Adrian Douglas : Maybe we will see an HD XL2. -->>> That would be supersweet, but it might also herald an end to the XL line.

July 4th, 2003, 03:25 PM	#7
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	It means the end of NTSC as a production tool for those that have wanted to discard it for some time but didn't have the deep pockets to do so.. As an acquisition tool this will be amazing. The fact that canon is onboard means that they will for sure have a XL1 type camera. It's a logical progression. We will all benefit. <<<-- Originally posted by Nigel Moore : <<<-- Originally posted by Adrian Douglas : Maybe we will see an HD XL2. -->>> That would be supersweet, but it might also herald an end to the XL line. -->>>

July 7th, 2003, 06:50 AM	#10
Andrew Petrie Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 484	Re: who will be first then with 3 CCD HD DV cam? <<<-- Originally posted by Mark Kubat : Does this mean firewire as we know it is dead too since it will be MPEG2? So USB 2.0? I don't get it - yet. -->>> 800 mbps FireWire is available now, with a third revision coming in the next few years. Given the wide spread adoption and acceptance of FireWire in the professional DV world, I don't forsee any changes here. I think (or hope!) FireWire continues as the standard digital transfer method :) __________________ Andrew \| Canon XL1s, ME66, Vinten Vision 3, GlideCam V16 (for sale!)

July 7th, 2003, 08:01 AM	#11
Zac Stein Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 730	As far as i can tell, it is still a dv25 standard, hence it won't need greater bandwidth yet. dv25 is 25megabit's per a second, and these standards hover around there as well. Our current equipment, except for a couple software updates are pretty much fully capable of the new standards. Zac

August 28th, 2003, 08:00 PM	#12
Don Parrish Major Player Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tavares Fla Posts: 541	Forgive me folks but I need to ask a few questions in order to continue moving forward with equipment considerations and business projections. I realize that the answers may simply not be available yet. "25p" Is this the 24p we have all craved ? I need a more simple explanation as to why our current gear is said to be capable of the new standard ( I believe Zac had mentioned this) . As my luck would have it FedX delivered my new A06 pioneer DVD burner about 8 hours ago, what will be it's fate? Has a projected price / market date even remotely be suggested? My new computer has IEEE 1394A, I believe I read that the "A" simply represents an industry standard for cables and pinouts, Any knowledge on this? Will the existing NLE's be able to patch and handle this new format? Thanks for any help?

August 29th, 2003, 01:56 AM	#13
Zac Stein Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 730	heya Don, 25p simply refers to the progressive frame rate per second of PAL standard video. I am australian, so all our video runs at 50i (fields per a second) and some camera's like the dvx100e here can capture 25p, which is 25 full frames per a second instead of 50 split fields per a second. When video here is shot at 50i, it is capturing 50 unique fields (imagine every second line of video, horizontal and verticalthis is very simplified) so in fact you get a very particular motion characteristic. This is a huge contributor to the so called 'video look'. You know that ultra realistic smooth and almost imediatly home footage or I am there looking stuff. Film being the king of a market that is fueled by economics many years ago found that the slowest frame rate they can run, hence save money using less film, is 24 frames per a second and retain a smooth movement. That of course means it is capturing 24 FULL frames per a second, no fields no muck no fuss. Finally now cameras here are being released such as the dvx100 that in NTSC land captures at 24p then uses some funny step downs to convert it to 60i (ntsc standard) but it is not capturing 60 unique fields per a second rather splitting up 24fps into 60 fields, so it still retains the look of 24fps, which is exactly the same way film is transfered, so if you have ever seen a dvd of a movie you like, that is what was done. In PAL land we shoot 50i, so much easier to use a standard of 25p and just split each frame into 2 fields and it will work on standard televisions. That is really it. Not so complicated is it :) Zac

August 29th, 2003, 05:50 AM	#15
Don Parrish Major Player Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tavares Fla Posts: 541	Thanks Zac, I was just wondering about the 1 frame difference, I guess it really won't make a difference, (or will it)? I realize about the frame rate, to be able to shoot in 24p will allow us to shoot commercials with great looks and great effects without the oversharp image of 60i, but when the specs were said to be 25 I didn't know if the 1 frame difference mean't anything or not? Also, what did you mean "Our current equipment, except for a couple software updates are pretty much fully capable of the new standards". Any news on chip size and number? (just curious). Thanks for the help