Sony 24 P

[Francesco Marano]

Hello
Sony Announces DCR-PC350 with 24 Frames Progressive Scan Effect for under $1,300

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-$1,300.htm

Bye

[Christopher C. Murphy]

People give me a hard time about the JVC HD10u and then Sony puts 24p on a crappy Handycam? That's a slap in the face of all the PD-170 users! If I were a Sony PD-170 owner I'd raise hell with Sony.

Murph

[Francesco Marano]

Now we have a camcorder with

2000 * 1500 pixel
progressive scan
24 p

the next year this will be

hdv that use a
1920 *1080 pixel
24 25 30 p or 50 60 i

and a new compression chip

what you think about?


Francesco

[Graeme Nattress]

I'ts not 24p, but (30p - 6p) with 2:3:3:2 pulldown, which sounds absolutely awful! At least, according to the article, that's what it's doing.

Graeme

[Jesse Bekas]

It's nice to see Sony making the effort to grab some indie filmmakers and enthusiats interested in 24p recording, an excellent 16X9, and Zebra patterning... but to put it on model that also includes their "Easy Mode", Electronic Stabilization, no manual shutter control, no true aperature readings, manual controls through the LCD, and put that in a matchbook cam is very frustrating (in a cam with those functions do we really want it to be 20% smaller than the PC303?) . Sony is still too scared to lose the consumer buyers to make this model worthwhile to real filmmakers and enthusiasts. The true value of this model lies in the fact that the good features will probably come to the HC1000, and now other manufacturers are going to have to match it...they're callin' you out Pana, you'd better answer!

[Robert Mann Z.]

it's nice to see that you can have this kind of power in your pocket...i will certainly look for this when it comes out as it will suit my small camera needs just fine...

i'm sure new models from sony will be on there way...

it's also very refreshing to see a major name brand like sony reduce the price of an upgrade to a good seller...i hope this trend continues as well

[Chris Hurd]

I agree, it's nice to see this 24p feature start to appear in consumer camcorders. It's only getting better!

[Kurth Bousman]

For those that think you can't do anything worthwhile with this type of camera- look at " The Celebration ". Otherwise , let's wait and see - looks like it could be a good tool- no more-no less.

[Francesco Marano]

not is important what can you make with this camera

this is the begin of a something new

Sony will add this feature to all new camera

and probably Canon Jvc Panasonic too.

This is the last step in dv before hdv.

Francesco

[Kurth Bousman]

Hello- Would it be possible to save that discarded frame , to have 30p, or build a filter that reconstructs it ?Kurth

[Graeme Nattress]

Not from the technical description - I don't think it's possible as it really does get thrown away! Perhaps the camera also has a 30p mode too?

Graeme

[Kurth Bousman]

Yeh - the camcorderinfo stuff doesn't count that out. that would be a swing vote as 30p , for me, would be better than 24. I never want to go to film. thanks for your response and keep up the cool tools !

[Michael Struthers]

Hey ya gotta start somewhere. This is the beginning of a 24p barrage I'll bet in the next couple months.

Bet this thing makes a nifty lil picture.

But I'm holding out for the big fish.

[Boyd Ostroff]

We seem to have several completely different threads going on this camera... Sony's press release does not mention 24p:

The DCR-PC350 camcorder's new cinematic effect mode enables users to experience the thrill of recording and playing back film-like scenes on video. This effect automatically engages the unit's progressive and 16:9 wide modes, creating video with Hollywood-like color reproduction while recording at 30 frames per second.

http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/4994

[Dylan Couper]

I'd rather see Sony put 24p in the DSR350...

[Ignacio Rodriguez]

It is a rather impressive little camera, true enhanced resolution 16:9, a single CCD with an RGB color filter (near 3 CCD performance), higher res for photos and other nice features and it seems to have progressive scan, but at 30 fps.

I would much rather see Sony offer me a firmware update to get proscan on the PDX10. I guess I might even be willing to pay for it.

[Steve McDonald]

If you read the details, you see that this camera doen't have any progressive scanning modes, either 24p or 30p. It just loses 20% of the interlaced frames and then shifts the remainder into a pulldown for compatibility to 30i recording and output. It may have the so-called film-look of 24-frame scanning, but there would be none of the blur-reducing, progressive-scan advantages for still-frame capture. As others said, in fast action, you might have noticeable disruption in the continuity, if the period of the lost frame comes at the wrong instant.

To me this comes under the heading of creative degradation. I assume that there's a standard mode that switches off this thing.

Steve McDonald

[Dave Croft]

Living in Pal land, I hope there is a Pal model of this cam soon. It would have 25p which would eliminate the need for the messy 24p pulldown from 30p, and would have increased resolution too ;)

Although I hope they put these kind of features in an upgrade of the VX2100/PD170.

Dave.

[Ignacio Rodriguez]

> If you read the details, you see that this camera
> doen't have any progressive scanning modes

Steve, this is from the press relesease:

"This effect automatically engages the unit's progressive and 16:9 wide modes".

I believe what they say about it. Sony consumer doesn't usually lie about it's products. Very different from what Sony broadcast does though. For some strange reason the pro division get's away with saying anything, like talking about the PDX10's "reduced vertical smear" and 15fps frame mode, ohh and there's the amazing "superb DVCAM image quality" or something like that jajajaj.

[Steve McDonald]

Ignacio, I'll say again, there's no progressive scanning modes on this camcorder. They call it a "progressive effect". This mode reduces the number of frames used, but they're scanned as interlaced and of course, that's how they are recorded and sent to the outputs.

Steve McDonald

[Jesse Bekas]

The "progressive scan" mode of this camcorder is going to be comparable to the "Frame Mode" of the Panasonics. It's not true 30p, but creates a similar effect. The same with the 24p mode. It is an effect that mimcs 24p. Sony is applying the term "progressive" very loosely, to describe the related effect of this new recroding mode...false advertising using buzz words to generate premature interest.

[Kurth Bousman]

Is anyone here speaking with knowledgeable authority or is this just "crystal ball stuff " ? How will we know without footage or a sony engineer spilling the beans ?

[Steve McDonald]

The "Frame Mode" of the Panasonic cameras has the effect of partially reducing the interframe blurring of moving subjects. This aids in the capture of clear still pictures from video footage.

There's nothing about the description of the Sony "Progressive-scan Effect" that would indicate that the typical interframe blurring of interlaced-scanned video would be reduced. The capture of still frames from this system would not be benefitted, in any way I can detect, from the information provided.

All the frames in this new Sony system would be scanned as interlaced, one of every five frames discarded and a pull-down used, that mixed the fields of the remaining frames, repeating some of them, in a way that filled in the missing gaps. The signal would be recorded and output as 29.97 interlaced frames per second in NTSC.

Steve McDonald

[Kurth Bousman]

Steve - what is your source of info? As Sony says , it is 30p 16x9. Until someone puts up another , more informed link that says different , I want to believe the press release.

[Stephen van Vuuren]

Steve:

As the Panasonic 24p, the CCD can capture progressive frames (in this case 30p) and then write them as interlaced for playback compatability. Then in capture and editing, the full progressive frame can be reconstructed without resolution loss. I see no reason that this is not exactly what Sony is describing.

[Steve McDonald]

It appears that some "progressive-thinkers" have had their buttons pushed by seeing that magic word, in regards to the upcoming Sony DCR-PC350. Note that in the article that was linked on the first message of this thread, the key phrase is "progressive-scan effect". There's nothing that leads me to believe that the Cinematic Mode of this camcorder is anything but an altered interlaced scan.

Read the article very carefully and filter the ambiguities added by its writer in regards to this mode. Don't confuse the information about the Panasonic model #100, which does a true progressive scan, with the function of the PC350. Sony's own press release about the PC350 is very limited in its description of the Cinematic Mode. The writers of several online articles got more details from some Sony representatives, than was directly released on their website. There's little other information about it available now.
An Internet search produced several more articles about the PC350, but they were even more limited in their descriptions.
A couple of them never once used the word, "progressive".

By this model's release date in the Fall, any misunderstanding about it should be settled. You can believe what you'd like in the meantime. I mentioned nothing about the 16:9 mode. Does anyone think that if Sony produced a medium-priced NTSC camcorder with true 24p or 29.97p progressive-scan, that this feature wouldn't be the leading theme of any promotional news they released about it?

Steve McDonald

[Stephen van Vuuren]

Steve:

This is the paragraph from the Sony Release

"New Features Bring Hollywood to Home Video


The DCR-PC350 camcorder's new cinematic effect mode enables users to experience the thrill of recording and playing back film-like scenes on video. This effect automatically engages the unit's progressive and 16:9 wide modes, creating video with Hollywood-like color reproduction while recording at 30 frames per second."

Pretty clear to me that's 30 progressive frames per second.

[Ken Tanaka]

Wow. Two pages of posts on a camera that won't even be available for two more months.

Pace yourselves. There's no point getting too hot hypothesizing about a device none of us have even touched yet. Plenty of time for that this fall when we'll need some heat (at least up here in Chicago).

[Stephen van Vuuren]

Ken:

You should know 24p progressive scan always gets us natives restless :)

[Ken Tanaka]

How well I know, as a DVX owner myself.

I must admit that this little camera has me a bit mystified, too. I'm at a loss to see its market. It doesn't really fit as a 'daddy-cam' (perhaps the 2nd or 3rd largest market for video cams). Daddies would never settle for only 24 frames per second of their little snookems when they can get 30 for less money! But it's also not really a Bohemian filmmakers' camera (ala DVX-style), either.

I guess what mystifies me most is why Sony has not chosen to produce a direct competitor to the DVX.

It will be interesting to see how this camera fares, both technically and commercially. Sony has made some unusual decisions during the past two years, many of which have left powder burns on their faces and shareholders ready to revolt.

[Federico Dib]

Well Sony has done it´s share of weird market deals in the past..
Not saying this is one of those but:

- Anyone remember Prerecorded Minidisc albums?
- I heard that DAT was originally suppossed to be a consumer substitute for your average TAPE.
- And what about BETA, or I even remember seeing a Video Cam that recorded in MiniDisc Data.

This is not by any means trying to imply that this camera will be the new DAT of DV, or that It will be a flop... but that like Ken said, let´s take it easy and wait.

[Steve McDonald]

Reading between the lines, as you must do to figure out many of these promotional
catch-phrases that describe new features,
I connect the reference by Sony about "activating progressive mode", to be about the "progressive-scan effect" that was mentioned by their representatives in interviews. That effect appears to be a frame-dumping and pull-down to equate the "film-look" of 24p scanning without really using progressive scan.

If it turns out that the DCR-PC350 really has true progressive-scanning, despite the signs I interpret to mean it does not, I will admit I'm wrong and apologize for hurting the feelings of those who have high hopes for having a lower-cost
24p/29.97p camera at a lower cost.

If all the picture improvements and large still-picture sizes that are attributed to the PC350, work as well as Sony describes and it has those true progressive modes, I'll probably buy one myself.

As Ken advises, it would be best to sit back and see this model in action, before we come to any more conclusions about its
nomenclature, that has been given only limited definintions, so far.

Steve McDonald

[Boyd Ostroff]

<<<-- Originally posted by Federico Dib : I even remember seeing a Video Cam that recorded in MiniDisc Data. -->>>

That idea is about to return with a vengence... the new PlayStation Portable will use yet another incompatible minidisk format

PSP adopts a small but high-capacity optical medium UMD™ (Universal Media Disc)
...
SCEI intends to aggressively promote PSP and UMD as the new handheld entertainment platform for the coming era.

[Ignacio Rodriguez]

> The writers of several online articles got more details
> from some Sony representatives, than was directly released
> on their website. There's little other information about it
> available now.

Links to the articles would be nice, so we can see if there really is any 'insider' information in them.

> I must admit that this little camera has me a bit mystified,
> too. I'm at a loss to see its market. It doesn't really fit as
> a 'daddy-cam' (perhaps the 2nd or 3rd largest market for video
> cams).

Easy, students. You are investing time and money to pursue a film career, you need a camera to try out things and do your homework without having to depend on camera loans, you go to the store, check out the miniDV palmcorders and notice one that does a cool 'cinema-like' mode, has 16:9, is very portable and doubles as a digicam. Sure, it costs more than the daddycam... but it has these special features you like... so you spend the extra $ ... see?

[Ken Tanaka]

Ah, you make a keen point, Ignacio.

[Steve McDonald]

Ignacio, the only link to any articles you need is called, "Search" and the keyword is "Sony DCR-PC350". Actually, the article linked on the first message on this thread gives the most information, even though it contains some dubious interpretations and incorrect uses of the term, "progressive".

Steve McDonald

[Stephen van Vuuren]

Steve:

Camcorderinfo has historicially given much misinformation about technical aspects of camera and often their reviews are more replete with typos then even my posts here :)

Sony's press release is much more clear - 30 fps, progressive, 16:9. Until more information comes out from a more reliable source, I think Sony's info is the best we have.

[Steve McDonald]

Stephen, I hope no one thought I was granting any credibility to Camcorder Info and its key player, as that was not my intent. Unless you found another Sony press release than the one linked on Boyd's message, it appears that you and others didn't read it very carefully.
So please take another look at the short paragraph in that release about the "Cinematic Effect Mode".

There was no other mention of this feature on the press release. It refers to a progressive mode and recording at 30 frames per second. All NTSC video is recorded at an interlaced 30 FPS (29.97 FPS to be precise) and this doesn't necessarily correlate to the scan rate of the camera or the type of scan. I see no mention of a progressive scan and the figure 30p is not used.

In interviews, such as the one with Camcorder Info, the Sony Reps used the term, "progessive-scan effect" in regards to the Cinematic Mode. They further described how 6 of each 30 frames are discarded and through a pull-down process, 30 interlaced frames are reconstructed from the remainder, for recording and output.

The use of only 24 frames to produce 30, gives the image a less smooth-looking motion or whatever the so-called film-look is supposed to be.

To me, terms such as "progressive-scan effect" and "progressive mode" don't equate to the more exact words, "progressive scan". Are some of us unfamiliar with what Sony calls a "progressive shutter", used by some of their digital camcorders to capture still pictures with an interlaced-scanning CCD?

Why don't we all wait until Sony delivers precise and comprehensive specifications about this model, before we promote it as being whatever we are hoping it will be?

Steve McDonald

[Chris Hurd]

<< Why don't we all wait until Sony delivers precise and comprehensive specifications about this model, before we promote it as being whatever we are hoping it will be? >>

Hey! Now that's a great idea! Thanks,

[Ignacio Rodriguez]

> They further described how 6 of each 30 frames are discarded
> and through a pull-down process, 30 interlaced frames are
> reconstructed from the remainder, for recording and output.

Steve, I'm sorry but the camcorderinfo article is not consistent with this, the quote on dropping frames is from Adam Wilt, who in turn is speculating because he is being asked (by the reporter) about how Sony might be pulling off the 24 fps, which seems to me to have been a rumor. If you have a link to a quote on a Sony rep that talks about 24 fps, please share it.

> Why don't we all wait until Sony delivers precise and
> comprehensive specifications about this model, before we
> promote it as being whatever we are hoping it will be?

I think it doesn't make much sense to speculate, but it's nice that we can work together to dissect the available information.