Most likely component outs on Z1 are full of compression at DVinfo.net

Laurence Maher · December 21st, 2004, 10:02 PM

Say guys,

Everyone here's be wondering if the component outs on the Z1 was going to be pre-compression . . . but Scott Billups (www.pixelmonger.com) says the following . . . .

"After converting the component from the Z1 using the AJA Transcoder, it appears to be less than 2:1:1. One rather educated guess was 1.6:0.8:0.8"

. . . assuming he's correct, this of course means it's crap.

Oh well, what do you expect from them anyway.

Chris Hurd · December 22nd, 2004, 12:23 AM

There's no question that Scott Billups is highly revered in this industry. I have his book. He's an amazingly insightful guy. He's worked with some amazing people. But he's been wrong before. I'll never forget DV Expo West 2003 when all these people came up to the Canon booth wanting to see the XL2 because Billups had told them it would be there... the camera was still more than six months away at that point. There's nothing wrong with speculating about what the Z1 can or can't do, but I'll wait for the reports from people who've had their hands on Z1 production samples when they're shipping.

David Farland · December 22nd, 2004, 03:28 AM

Would like to know Scott's setup for testing this. I expect he'd done a live capture and not a recorded one. I asked Sony Engineering to check the video paths and they told me "out of the encoding 'big black chip' (with no detailed schematic!) comes two signals. One to the mpeg2 encoder and one to the component out circuit."
Presently I'm waiting for a response as to the number of data bits going into the D/A converter for the component out.
Can you tell me where Scott said this?

Thank you,
David farland

Rob Lohman · December 22nd, 2004, 07:00 AM

David: I think you mixed the two up. I expect he did a test with
a recorded session (hence, it has been MPEG-2 compressed to
tape!!) instead of a live session.

It makes sense that a live session would go directly to component
out (hence Sony's talk about two paths). Keep in mind that you
will need a high quality component lossless or near (visually) lossless
board will you see any benefits.

Toke Lahti · December 22nd, 2004, 09:38 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Laurence Maher : Say guys,
Everyone here's be wondering if the component outs on the Z1 was going to be pre-compression . . . but Scott Billups (www.pixelmonger.com) says the following . . . .
"After converting the component from the Z1 using the AJA Transcoder, it appears to be less than 2:1:1. One rather educated guess was 1.6:0.8:0.8"
. . . assuming he's correct, this of course means it's crap.
Oh well, what do you expect from them anyway. -->>>

Where did he said that and where was the test made?
Any links?
Only thing I understand from that line is that fx1's 960x1080 chips can't make totally full 1920x1080 resolution.
It's a component signal and chroma components have half the bandwidth of the luma. So nothing about compression really, just about resolution of the camera (lens&ccd&dsp).

David Farland · December 22nd, 2004, 02:51 PM

That’s spot on Rob…that why I’m hoping the studio solution of say an AJA HD10A, Decklink HD, PCI-X system & 4/6 Sata raid drives, isn’t throwing ‘pearls to swine’.

I’m guessing the way to be certain is running waveform monitor tests (NLE or external) or finding out from Sony, or Scott, if he’s done the live test.
Moving on though, the field solution is a lot more interesting which is why I’m concerned with the “Wanting to design high definition field capture pc system” thread.

Life would be a lot simpler if:
1) someone with the setup did a live component WFM test to ascertain the colour space i.e.10bit 4:2:2
2) Sony gave us the live ccd to component signal path…yeah.
3) We knew Scott Billups’s test setup to be live capture, looked at his data and found he’s right so we can drop the whole issue
or
4) If Scott's test wasn't on the live component, and it the component out turns out to be good quality, I just wish that Apple hurry up and support pci-express so Blackmagic, their partner can release a low cost Decklink HD pci-express board which we can all use in single cpu pc based (or mac) systems and do low cost component 4:2:2 live capture.

Thank you,
David Farland

Jim Arthurs · December 22nd, 2004, 07:54 PM

The very moment I get my Z1 I'll be able to test this (assuming it hasn't already been proved/debunked between now and then).

After viewing a demo FX1 "live" on my HP2335 via component I'm less of a skeptic about the potential of a pre-compression output.

I have a Leitch VelocityHD setup, and will record from an AJA HD10A converter into my system uncompressed while also recording per normal in camera to tape.

Then I will do a "difference" test between the two images, in Digital Fusion and look for signs of compression. Should be pretty definative, but will be a good 75 to 90 days from now till Z1 release until I can try this...

If it works out that the live component feed IS before compression, then this will be a nice studio setup for bluescreen work. I'll get a BlackMagic Multibridge (instead of the AJA HD10A) to make it easier to do all this transcoding, as it offers far more features for not much more money...

Also, since the VelocityHD records 8 or 10 bit, compressed or uncompressed, I'll have some bandwidth saving options besides relying on just uncompressed HD . I'd wager recording 30 to 40 Megs/sec 4:2:2 compressed will blow doors off of native HDCAM at 21 Megs/sec 3:1:1.

Fun times ahead...

Regards,

Jim Arthurs

Steve Crisdale · December 22nd, 2004, 11:37 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jim Arthurs : The very moment I get my Z1 I'll be able to test this (assuming it hasn't already been proved/debunked between now and then).

Fun times ahead...

Regards,

Jim Arthurs -->>>

Why the need to wait till the arrival of the Z1?
Unless I'm mistaken, the Z1 will be using the same basic imaging array as the FX1, and the FX1 has component out too boot....

If component out to any of the AJA HD cards is 'do-able' on the FX1.....you'll have your answer sooner rather than later.

If David Farland's Sony engineering connection is right, and the signal is from the processor rather than the encoder.....then there may be serious benefits for all Sony HDV camera owners.

Jim Arthurs · December 23rd, 2004, 10:01 AM

"Why the need to wait till the arrival of the Z1?
Unless I'm mistaken, the Z1 will be using the same basic imaging array as the FX1, and the FX1 has component out too boot...."

Correct. But I don't have access to the FX1. Just got my hands on one for a few minutes that my dealer had brought by to show a client.

I have a PO in place for one of the first batch of five Z1's my Sony dealer is getting. That's as good as I can do for now.

If a window opens for a full day in my work schedule between now and Z1 release, AND I want to drive 90 miles (one way) and lug all my computer gear up to the dealer, I will do so. It's kind of a "Perfect Storm" of conditions to make this happen for me.

Uncompressed output would be a bonus feature for me, and one with all my other gear I could take real advantage of, but it's not a deal breaker on the purchase. I'm pretty darn confident that it is uncompressed, and hopefully someone will find out definatively between now and then.

I guess I could always buy one at Best Buy then return it in a few hours.... :)

Regards,

Jim Arthurs

Filip Kovcin · December 23rd, 2004, 07:25 PM

hello there,

i just left demo Z1 camera back to sony after a day of testing. unfortunatelly i wasn't in position to check is it or not compressed component, (i was without a camera when i read the thread), but i asked sony guy and he says that component is NOT compressed in any way. BUT - since he is not a guru on this - will ask someone in japan (after the cristmass). so if you people are still interested - i will pass this info as soon as i get it.

btw - did anyone tested this camera with plasma display? i noticed some bendings (like 8bit color "steps") on the screen which are not visible on real HD CRT monitor. any suggestions?

thank you,

filip

Michael Pappas · December 24th, 2004, 02:27 AM

Laurence Maher post the link to Billups talking about his test. His camera section has no FX1/Z1 info that your talking about.

<<<-- Originally posted by Laurence Maher : Say guys,

Everyone here's be wondering if the component outs on the Z1 was going to be pre-compression . . . but Scott Billups (www.pixelmonger.com) says the following . . . .

"After converting the component from the Z1 using the AJA Transcoder, it appears to be less than 2:1:1. One rather educated guess was 1.6:0.8:0.8"

. . . assuming he's correct, this of course means it's crap.

Oh well, what do you expect from them anyway. -->>>

December 21st, 2004, 10:02 PM	#1
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Most likely component outs on Z1 are full of compression . . . . Say guys, Everyone here's be wondering if the component outs on the Z1 was going to be pre-compression . . . but Scott Billups (www.pixelmonger.com) says the following . . . . "After converting the component from the Z1 using the AJA Transcoder, it appears to be less than 2:1:1. One rather educated guess was 1.6:0.8:0.8" . . . assuming he's correct, this of course means it's crap. Oh well, what do you expect from them anyway.

December 22nd, 2004, 12:23 AM	#2
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	There's no question that Scott Billups is highly revered in this industry. I have his book. He's an amazingly insightful guy. He's worked with some amazing people. But he's been wrong before. I'll never forget DV Expo West 2003 when all these people came up to the Canon booth wanting to see the XL2 because Billups had told them it would be there... the camera was still more than six months away at that point. There's nothing wrong with speculating about what the Z1 can or can't do, but I'll wait for the reports from people who've had their hands on Z1 production samples when they're shipping. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

December 22nd, 2004, 07:00 AM	#4
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	David: I think you mixed the two up. I expect he did a test with a recorded session (hence, it has been MPEG-2 compressed to tape!!) instead of a live session. It makes sense that a live session would go directly to component out (hence Sony's talk about two paths). Keep in mind that you will need a high quality component lossless or near (visually) lossless board will you see any benefits. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

December 22nd, 2004, 09:38 AM	#5
Toke Lahti Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 158	Re: Most likely component outs on Z1 are full of compression . . . . <<<-- Originally posted by Laurence Maher : Say guys, Everyone here's be wondering if the component outs on the Z1 was going to be pre-compression . . . but Scott Billups (www.pixelmonger.com) says the following . . . . "After converting the component from the Z1 using the AJA Transcoder, it appears to be less than 2:1:1. One rather educated guess was 1.6:0.8:0.8" . . . assuming he's correct, this of course means it's crap. Oh well, what do you expect from them anyway. -->>> Where did he said that and where was the test made? Any links? Only thing I understand from that line is that fx1's 960x1080 chips can't make totally full 1920x1080 resolution. It's a component signal and chroma components have half the bandwidth of the luma. So nothing about compression really, just about resolution of the camera (lens&ccd&dsp).

December 23rd, 2004, 07:25 PM	#10
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	compressed or not? hello there, i just left demo Z1 camera back to sony after a day of testing. unfortunatelly i wasn't in position to check is it or not compressed component, (i was without a camera when i read the thread), but i asked sony guy and he says that component is NOT compressed in any way. BUT - since he is not a guru on this - will ask someone in japan (after the cristmass). so if you people are still interested - i will pass this info as soon as i get it. btw - did anyone tested this camera with plasma display? i noticed some bendings (like 8bit color "steps") on the screen which are not visible on real HD CRT monitor. any suggestions? thank you, filip

December 22nd, 2004, 03:28 AM	#3
David Farland Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sydney Posts: 32	Would like to know Scott's setup for testing this. I expect he'd done a live capture and not a recorded one. I asked Sony Engineering to check the video paths and they told me "out of the encoding 'big black chip' (with no detailed schematic!) comes two signals. One to the mpeg2 encoder and one to the component out circuit." Presently I'm waiting for a response as to the number of data bits going into the D/A converter for the component out. Can you tell me where Scott said this? Thank you, David farland

December 22nd, 2004, 02:51 PM	#6
David Farland Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sydney Posts: 32	That’s spot on Rob…that why I’m hoping the studio solution of say an AJA HD10A, Decklink HD, PCI-X system & 4/6 Sata raid drives, isn’t throwing ‘pearls to swine’. I’m guessing the way to be certain is running waveform monitor tests (NLE or external) or finding out from Sony, or Scott, if he’s done the live test. Moving on though, the field solution is a lot more interesting which is why I’m concerned with the “Wanting to design high definition field capture pc system” thread. Life would be a lot simpler if: 1) someone with the setup did a live component WFM test to ascertain the colour space i.e.10bit 4:2:2 2) Sony gave us the live ccd to component signal path…yeah. 3) We knew Scott Billups’s test setup to be live capture, looked at his data and found he’s right so we can drop the whole issue or 4) If Scott's test wasn't on the live component, and it the component out turns out to be good quality, I just wish that Apple hurry up and support pci-express so Blackmagic, their partner can release a low cost Decklink HD pci-express board which we can all use in single cpu pc based (or mac) systems and do low cost component 4:2:2 live capture. Thank you, David Farland

December 22nd, 2004, 07:54 PM	#7
Jim Arthurs Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Colorado Springs CO Posts: 120	The very moment I get my Z1 I'll be able to test this (assuming it hasn't already been proved/debunked between now and then). After viewing a demo FX1 "live" on my HP2335 via component I'm less of a skeptic about the potential of a pre-compression output. I have a Leitch VelocityHD setup, and will record from an AJA HD10A converter into my system uncompressed while also recording per normal in camera to tape. Then I will do a "difference" test between the two images, in Digital Fusion and look for signs of compression. Should be pretty definative, but will be a good 75 to 90 days from now till Z1 release until I can try this... If it works out that the live component feed IS before compression, then this will be a nice studio setup for bluescreen work. I'll get a BlackMagic Multibridge (instead of the AJA HD10A) to make it easier to do all this transcoding, as it offers far more features for not much more money... Also, since the VelocityHD records 8 or 10 bit, compressed or uncompressed, I'll have some bandwidth saving options besides relying on just uncompressed HD . I'd wager recording 30 to 40 Megs/sec 4:2:2 compressed will blow doors off of native HDCAM at 21 Megs/sec 3:1:1. Fun times ahead... Regards, Jim Arthurs

December 22nd, 2004, 11:37 PM	#8
Steve Crisdale Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Katoomba NSW Australia Posts: 635	<<<-- Originally posted by Jim Arthurs : The very moment I get my Z1 I'll be able to test this (assuming it hasn't already been proved/debunked between now and then). Fun times ahead... Regards, Jim Arthurs -->>> Why the need to wait till the arrival of the Z1? Unless I'm mistaken, the Z1 will be using the same basic imaging array as the FX1, and the FX1 has component out too boot.... If component out to any of the AJA HD cards is 'do-able' on the FX1.....you'll have your answer sooner rather than later. If David Farland's Sony engineering connection is right, and the signal is from the processor rather than the encoder.....then there may be serious benefits for all Sony HDV camera owners.

December 23rd, 2004, 10:01 AM	#9
Jim Arthurs Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Colorado Springs CO Posts: 120	"Why the need to wait till the arrival of the Z1? Unless I'm mistaken, the Z1 will be using the same basic imaging array as the FX1, and the FX1 has component out too boot...." Correct. But I don't have access to the FX1. Just got my hands on one for a few minutes that my dealer had brought by to show a client. I have a PO in place for one of the first batch of five Z1's my Sony dealer is getting. That's as good as I can do for now. If a window opens for a full day in my work schedule between now and Z1 release, AND I want to drive 90 miles (one way) and lug all my computer gear up to the dealer, I will do so. It's kind of a "Perfect Storm" of conditions to make this happen for me. Uncompressed output would be a bonus feature for me, and one with all my other gear I could take real advantage of, but it's not a deal breaker on the purchase. I'm pretty darn confident that it is uncompressed, and hopefully someone will find out definatively between now and then. I guess I could always buy one at Best Buy then return it in a few hours.... :) Regards, Jim Arthurs

December 24th, 2004, 02:27 AM	#11
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	Re: Most likely component outs on Z1 are full of compression . . . . Laurence Maher post the link to Billups talking about his test. His camera section has no FX1/Z1 info that your talking about. <<<-- Originally posted by Laurence Maher : Say guys, Everyone here's be wondering if the component outs on the Z1 was going to be pre-compression . . . but Scott Billups (www.pixelmonger.com) says the following . . . . "After converting the component from the Z1 using the AJA Transcoder, it appears to be less than 2:1:1. One rather educated guess was 1.6:0.8:0.8" . . . assuming he's correct, this of course means it's crap. Oh well, what do you expect from them anyway. -->>>