Ethics of Canon & the 7D

[John Vincent]

Besides the excitement of a new piece of equipment that looks to up the ante for indie film makers, the 7D has sparked a good debate as to Canon's ethics in doing so.

Primarily, I'm talking about the lack of 2 things: The lack of 24p on the Mark II and the timing of announcement of the 7D.

People seem legitimately divided as to whether or not Canon had an obligation to warn potential Mark II buyers in the last few months that the 7D was coming down the pipe. Even more people seem to desire Canon to upgrade the Mark II to shoot 24p, although there are plenty that say "No, if you really wanted 24p you should have waited."

I guess I tend to agree with those who say Canon doesn't have a duty for either. When JVC made JVC 100 early adapters (me) send in their camera for a firmware upgrade, it was to fix/diminish the split screen effect. They didn't "fix" any of the other stuff that would soon appear on later GYU models, including simple things like a flip screen mode on the GY-110 for 35mm adapters.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to have all the new features of the JVC line-up, but I don't feel they owe it to me to upgrade my camera.

Bottom line is that I haven't bought Mark II yet because 24p is a must have feature for me. I know whatever cam I buy will be almost certainly outdated within a year, two at most. It always seemed silly to me that Tramm - God bless his heart - had to invent magic lantern to get some aspect of manual control for the Mark II.

Canon seems to have listened to all the input from Mark II, I'll say that about them as a company. Am I way off base on this? Not sure of corporate Canon's rep outside of this issue.

john

[Daniel Bates]

I think I'm in agreement with you here. Anyone who believes that Canon "had an obligation" to warn them of the upcoming 7D during the last few months is laboring under a considerable sense of entitlement.

[Jonathan Shaw]

Here's Phil Bloom's response to it

YouTube - Mr Hitler not happy about the Canon 7d...

[Ken Diewert]

John,

What makes Canon different from any other camera manufacturer in this regard? or any other technology manufacturer. 3 years ago Dual core processors were cutting edge, now there are octocore available. I paid 3,500 for a editing sytem 3 years ago that's relatively useless these days. My first Toshiba laptop had a 4gb hard drive - and that was less than 10 years ago.

I was completely stoked when just after I purchased my 5d2 that Canon announced the manual control firmware update. I had planned to buy a couple of Nikon lenses even though I already had some Canon glass. I had not expected the update. I bought the 5d2 for what it was, an incredible HD cam, that I already have glass for that sells at an incredible good price and shoots killer stills. The release of the 7d has done nothing to dampen my enthusiasm for my 5d2. Now if iI had just bought a t1i or a 50d - I might be choked. In fact I'm surprised this isn't called the 60d.

Now, if the 7d had come out with a rotating viewfinder, xlr inputs, audio meters, a shoulder mount attachment, 24p, and overcranking, then I might have been disappointed, but nobody forced me to buy the 5d2 when I did. I'm glad I did and I absolutely love it.

I bought an XLh1, and six months later they brought out the XH series which were very similar and considerably cheaper - yet I knew what I bought when I bought it and still love my H1 and use it all the time.

Understand that I really don't care that much about 24p - if I really did care, and it was a dealbreaker, then I certainly wouldn't have bought the 5d2. And I really don't get all this anger from people thinking that Canon is screwing them over. The 5d is primarily a DSLR that happens to shoot great video. Funny though, because every still photog I've talked to about this camera, (including a couple who own them) don't know or don't care that the camera shoots awesome HD video, because to them it's a kick-ass DSLR only.

[Yang Wen]

If there is even a sliver of legitimate argument that Canon should have done this, then this discussion is worthwhile. In reality, this is a topic that is not worth addressing, especially the massive amnts of text that has been typed already discussing it.

The best we can hope for is that if it's technically possible, Canon will make its most popular FF camera even more popular by giving it 24P capability via firmware.

Given the tongue in cheek fashion that Canon announced the 5D2 manual firmware (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/co...categoryid=139) I'm hoping that they'll try everything they can to give us 24P on the 5D2 to one-up the competition some more...

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by John Vincent

People seem legitimately divided as to whether or not Canon had an obligation to warn potential Mark II buyers in the last few months that the 7D was coming down the pipe.

I don't think it's a legitimate division. Once again I will assert -- with no real way to prove it, of course -- that the majority of potential 5D Mk. II buyers are not *primarily* interested in its video capabilities. The primary attraction of the 5D Mk. II -- again, in my opinion -- is its full-frame capabilities, as the least expensive Canon D-SLR offering a full-frame chip. The 7D is a different camera in that regard.

Now if there is an EOS 50D replacement in the pipeline, such as a possible 60D coming soon, then in my opinion Canon has done things in the right order by announcing the 7D first. There would be hell to pay if the 60D (if there is one) was announced before the 7D.

You guys have got to remember that HD video recording, as important as it is for all of us, is *not* the primary selling point of the 5D Mk. II or the 7D. Of course, a large number of both cameras will be used for video production -- but the *primary* application for both is *photography* and both cameras will be used more for photography than for video production.

The other thing that I don't understand is why some folks seems so married to the gear. When a new model comes out with features you'd rather have, then why not sell what you've got and move on? These two camera bodies are all part of the EOS system. They share a lot of interchangeable components beyond just the lenses. The used market is very good for sellers. Let go of your current model and buy the next new one. The cost to upgrade is relatively small, in fact a used 5D Mk. II will more than pay for a brand new 7D body -- so for that matter it's better than a free upgrade. It's an upgrade with cash back!

[Matt Newcomb]

Originally Posted by John Vincent

People seem legitimately divided as to whether or not Canon had an obligation to warn potential Mark II buyers in the last few months that the 7D was coming down the pipe. Even more people seem to desire Canon to upgrade the Mark II to shoot 24p, although there are plenty that say "No, if you really wanted 24p you should have waited."

They did warn people. They announced their product a full month or so ahead of its shipping date.

[Ben Syverson]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

When a new model comes out with features you'd rather have, then why not sell what you've got and move on?

I get your point, Chris, and agree on some level, but at the same time, these are very different cameras. If you were building a lens library based on the 5D, it's going to be a very different library if you switch to the 7D.

For me, the still and video function are equally important. I use both. I have money invested in L glass, and don't want to downgrade to APS-C from FF. My 24L should be wide.

I know, Canon has a long history of releasing new features in mid-to-low level cameras, only to add them to the "pro" models later. It's easy to see why, when their entry level and midrange models way, way outsell their pro bodies. So it's not totally unexpected.

Still, it's hard for me to swallow. The 5D, as a pro model, won't see an update for 18-24 months at least. The 7D, in contrast, will sell so well that they'll have a 7D II in about 12 months. That leads me to believe that they'll backsweeten the 5D with 24p, to keep sales going for the next couple years. The 5D is obviously a higher profit margin camera. Aside from the slightly higher expense of the chip (maybe an extra $100? who knows), it probably costs about the same as a 7D. They want to keep selling them.

[Chris Hurd]

Good points of course Ben.

I'm thinking we'll probably see a 1D or 1Ds update before a 5D update.

And I'll bet we'll get HD with all the frame rates in the full-frame 1Ds model.

[Phil Bloom]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Shaw

Here's Phil Bloom's response to it

YouTube - Mr Hitler not happy about the Canon 7d...

That was me being tongue in cheek, not my actual personal feelings. I bought a second mkII body just 4 weeks ago. Do I regret it? Nope. I knew something like this was on the horizon. It was pretty obvious. Now if it was full frame then I would have been annoyed!!

[Tom Roper]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Once again I will assert -- with no real way to prove it, of course -- that the majority of potential 5D Mk. II buyers are not *primarily* interested in its video capabilities. The primary attraction of the 5D Mk. II -- again, in my opinion -- is its full-frame capabilities, as the least expensive Canon D-SLR offering a full-frame chip.

You guys have got to remember that HD video recording, as important as it is for all of us, is *not* the primary selling point of the 5D Mk. II or the 7D. Of course, a large number of both cameras will be used for video production -- but the *primary* application for both is *photography* and both cameras will be used more for photography than for video production.

This applies to me. I got the MkII for FF photography first.

I was very happy with the old 5D1, but upgraded for the live view and micro focus adjust features.

The 7D's advanced feature set is compelling, and APS-C by most accounts will become the standard. It already is for sales, right? I can't understand how people would be chased away from the FF format because of this one camera, but it seems they are. There are very good reasons to embrace APS-C or FF on their merits, but if you can just jump from one to the other for no better justification than a new model appears, it would be hard to convince me that you're going to be a better photographer for it. These tools are the means to an end, not the end itself.

[Phil Bloom]

So many people own APS-C cameras with corresponding lenses. There is no way Canon will abandon those people and force them all to buy new lenses hence the 7d is the top of the range for the APS-C for that reason.

[Michael Wisniewski]

For me it's just plainly obvious and everyday common sense, but I'll say it anyway ... THERE IS ALWAYS SOMETHING ELSE COMING DOWN THE PIPE ... so for anyone reading this who wasn't aware of it, consider yourself duly warned. From now on, there shouldn't be any surprises at all ...

[John Vincent]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

These two camera bodies are all part of the EOS system. They share a lot of interchangeable components beyond just the lenses. The used market is very good for sellers. Let go of your current model and buy the next new one. The cost to upgrade is relatively small, in fact a used 5D Mk. II will more than pay for a brand new 7D body -- so for that matter it's better than a free upgrade. It's an upgrade with cash back!

Great points Chris. I guess many of us tend to think of it as all or nothing when that's not usually the case. It would seem that most if not all the the responders agree that Canon did nothing wrong.

That said, do manufacturers ever have an obligation to upgrade firmware (assuming the camera works as advertised) or warn potential buyers that something better is months away?

Or is it always you take what you get, period. Anyway, I have found the responses to be very interesting.

PS - That Hitler clip is hilarious.

john

[Brian Boyko]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

The other thing that I don't understand is why some folks seems so married to the gear. When a new model comes out with features you'd rather have, then why not sell what you've got and move on? These two camera bodies are all part of the EOS system. They share a lot of interchangeable components beyond just the lenses. The used market is very good for sellers. Let go of your current model and buy the next new one. The cost to upgrade is relatively small, in fact a used 5D Mk. II will more than pay for a brand new 7D body -- so for that matter it's better than a free upgrade. It's an upgrade with cash back!

Indeed. When the 7D was announced with 24p support, I went out that day and canceled my GH1 order and bought a Canon T1i. Yes, it only has 720p30, but that's all I need -right now- and DSLR movie shooting is an entirely different type of shooting. (Much more difficult, but worth it!) By the time I sell the T1i body and get a 7D, it'll be cheaper, and I'll be used to shooting DSLR for video, plus I'll have all the glass I need for a good long while.