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Old December 9th, 2012, 03:15 PM   #16
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Re: S3D Workflow Suggestions

The pairing in the bin is not a particular drawback, it's just they way it works. I did it today on a project and it wasn't particularly onerous but I must admit 99.999% of what I shoot and edit is genlocked so it's not something I worry about much.

I do like the slip function in the Onsight OS3D stereo plug-in, which allows you to slide the left and right clips relative to each other in 1 frame intervals after you've paired them without messing about on the timeline. I've not seen this in any other editor and I wish Edius had it. If I had a lot of clips to align I'd probably go back to FCP and use OS3D just for this.

Likewise I have no issue with stereo adjustment at clip or sequence level and would naturally do that rather than across a whole timeline, which could be pretty long. Most stereo corrections are at clip level anyway, only fine tuning for transitions at top level perhaps but I can do that in Edius later in the project by making a single sequence.

Normal flow to correct and edit a clip in Edius for me is rectify & fit, then autotrim, then play with the HIT if necessary, I haven't seen any particular problems with doing this and it's become almost automatic now.

I do wish there was a built-in blu-ray capability but I can at least export blu-ray format files out to an external authoring/encoding system (my friends have Adobe). Let's not forget that blu-ray licensing costs from Sony are one reason software to do this is so expensive, something they perhaps don't have to worry about for their own in-house tools. However this alone is not enough to convince me to move to Vegas.

As you say though, it's mostly a matter of personal preference but it is good to hear what each system can do and be able to compare them.
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Old December 9th, 2012, 03:37 PM   #17
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Re: S3D Workflow Suggestions

Well, for me every additional workstep is a drawback - especially if it is not necessary really. There could also be a pairing in the timeline. So frankly spoken, a workflow that forces me to additional steps is something that I do not like. Due to additionl work and the wish to speed up in a routine process, due to the possibility for errors. If you use genlock, it is no issue for you - because then you have no need to adjust the clips and then the possibilities in the bin are enough. But imagine people who shoot with consumer formats like AVCHD - they have the double work and I can tell you that I am not happy with that.

If one likes to do s3D adjustment at the clip level or the timeline level can be seen as a question of taste. Both has advantages and disadvantages. To do it in the timeline allows you to focus better to jumps in the depth, for example. But if one needs to copy clips he will lose the connection to the s3D adjustment that was done in the timeline.

Well, that is an interesting question - after the horizontal adjustment there is a need to crop the picture, otherwise you have 2D parts left and right in the video. I think the horizontal adjustment is one of the major editing operations in s3D - at least if one shoots with parallel cameras. So if the autotrimm dis-adjust the horizontal adjustment, I see that as bug. But maybe that is gone in 6.52.

As far as I know, there is no MVC encoder in the Adobe products too. There was an MVC-encoder in Edius during the public beta phase, but they have killed that again. Maybe one reason were the licesing costs, the other one maybe the very poor quality that we have seen there. In terms of costs - the upgrade to a 0.5 version was expensive enough. I think more consumer tools like Magix Pro X4 have an MVC-encoder, from Mainconcept and also Cyberlinks PD10/11 has one. I wonder why Edius charges us something about 300 Euros for the upgrade of a 0.5 version without such an encoder. Sure, people who use the Scenarist or DoStudio will not need that - but that is something about additional US$ 20.000. But not everybody goes for MVC-based 3D-Blu rays.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 01:26 PM   #18
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Re: S3D Workflow Suggestions

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Originally Posted by Wolfgang Schmid View Post
I do not see a lot of crashes with Vegas Pro 12 anymore. From time to time there are crashes, but that seems to be gone - at least on my system.
That's good to hear. I cut sometimes on Vegas '11, and it crashes all the time (especially when trying to render).
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Old December 10th, 2012, 01:38 PM   #19
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Re: S3D Workflow Suggestions

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Originally Posted by Wolfgang Schmid View Post
Well, for me every additional workstep is a drawback.
That's a good point, Wolfgang. I had no idea, when I started working in stereo, a year ago, how much extra work was involved. So many parts of the process involve extra steps in transcoding, aligning, pairing, etc. I'm sure we all get kinda used to it, but anything that can help reduce the overall time drag is very welcome. I'm looking for useful scripts and macros for After Effects, to help ease the repetitive extra steps.

Speaking of which, if anyone else here works in 3D Studio Max, you should know that David Shelton, the author of the 3DHippie Stereocam plug-in, has finalized his 2.0 release, with lots of great new features, and minus some old buggy ones. He has a pro version (which I was happy to invest in), but even the free version has lots of great functionality.
3dHippie Blog Archiv 3DHIPPIE STEREOCAM V2 AVAILABLE
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Old December 10th, 2012, 04:29 PM   #20
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Re: S3D Workflow Suggestions

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That's good to hear. I cut sometimes on Vegas '11, and it crashes all the time (especially when trying to render).
Right, there has been significant issues with Vegas Pro 11 - the latest build 700/701 should have improved much of that. And also Vegas Pro 12 has become much better, after the semi-public beta-testing. I do not say that it is now as rocket stable as Edius is, but you can work again without crashing every second minute. I see here long editing sessions wher it does not crash anymore ... not for all users of all machines, but it has become much better again.

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I had no idea, when I started working in stereo, a year ago, how much extra work was involved.
Right - I should correct my statement in the way that I should say: additional steps, that go beyond the workflow that is optimal for achieving my goals, should be avoided - since they are additional work, reduce our productivity, and bring in additional possibilities for errors. s3D requires additional steps in the workflow, for sure. But with a black-and-white movie we also had no need for color correction - what is not true, since also that must be adjusted for the total luminance.... :))

But I think you know what I mean here. I want to be able to run a workflow that allows me high performance deriving by a good standardisation. I do not say that Edius is worse here. Overall, I think the Edius workflow is great, and I love it because it is a very professional and very stable tool. But I was shocked a little bit when I started to understood the restrictions in pairing of AVCHD s3D files in Edius. But I undestand very well: if somebody works in Edius, he will be willing to accept such limitations. A 100%-perfect workflow is an illusion in the end - but I would like to go for something of 90%.

I have no experience with Davids tool, I would like to learn here more from your experience.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 08:04 PM   #21
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Re: S3D Workflow Suggestions

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Originally Posted by Wolfgang Schmid View Post
I want to be able to run a workflow that allows me high performance deriving by a good standardisation. I do not say that Edius is worse here. Overall, I think the Edius workflow is great, and I love it because it is a very professional and very stable tool. But I was shocked a little bit when I started to understood the restrictions in pairing of AVCHD s3D files in Edius. But I undestand very well: if somebody works in Edius, he will be willing to accept such limitations. A 100%-perfect workflow is an illusion in the end - but I would like to go for something of 90%.
Yeah, I get it. We are exploring a niche that is not well-supported, and which is growing constantly. That means lots of great new products and workflows will emerge, but it also means that the infrastructure is not quite there yet (at least not on the low-cost-end).

All of us who choose to explore s3D need an adventurous spirit to try out all the possible ways of approaching it, but at some point, it'd definitely be nicer not to have to do all the manual monkey work, for each and every project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang Schmid View Post
I have no experience with Davids tool, I would like to learn here more from your experience.
Yeah, it's been great, and it just got a lot greater. His site (link in my previous post) explains all the functions better than I can, but his 2.0 version is much better than the previous script. For example, it now has a dedicated stereo window. In the previous version, the stereo was always the last thing I'd deal with, because the script could only render a preview of one frame, and it would take a long time to do it. But now the plug-in supports a second 3D monitor, so I can visualize the scene in stereo, the whole time.

Plus, if my chosen IA doesn't look as good on the render as I'd like, I can adjust the depth, according to whichever eye I'd like to keep, so I only have to render the other eye out.

I can choose pixel parallax, so no more trying to measure the screen. It can render with horizontal overscan, so I can adjust convergence without losing my scale. It can integrate with Wimmer's Stereoscopic Player, to preview there. The rig has automatic near, screen, and far plane indicators, so I can set-up the cameras with reasonable accuracy before previewing anything. It integrates with the VRay render plug-in, for naturalistic lighting, etc.

There's probably more I'm not thinking about now. I've used his rig for every render, and so there's things I take for granted. If you have any specific questions about the rig, please let me know (and/or check out his site).
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Old December 11th, 2012, 10:41 AM   #22
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Re: S3D Workflow Suggestions

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Originally Posted by Matt Faw View Post
Yeah, I get it. We are exploring a niche that is not well-supported, and which is growing constantly. That means lots of great new products and workflows will emerge, but it also means that the infrastructure is not quite there yet (at least not on the low-cost-end).

All of us who choose to explore s3D need an adventurous spirit to try out all the possible ways of approaching it, but at some point, it'd definitely be nicer not to have to do all the manual monkey work, for each and every project.
Well, if you understand the editing of s3D with footage from TWO AVCHD or DSLR cameras as a niche, then you can say that this is not well-supported yet - by Edius. That includes every footage from two cameras, that cannot be genlocked during shooting.

If I have a genlock available as the 99% of Neil, you have not that issue. If you shoot with a MVC camera like the Z10K, you do not have that issue either.

At least I have to explore a little bit the link to Davids tool.
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