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Old June 12th, 2008, 01:46 PM   #1
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Quote: "Not a Single Pro, or Aspiring Pro Uses Premiere" ...?

Hello All!

Now wait a minute, I didn't say that, I got this from the May 2008 of DV Magazine, and it bugs me.

Here is the quote: " but I don't know a single professional (or even aspiring professional) editor that uses Adobe Premier."

This came from the article titled "Trial By Fire" by Jay Holben.

Avid and FCP appear to be this gentleman's NLEs of choice. But he apparently doesn't have a very good opinion of PPro, nor does he think any other "Professional" does either.

I have some of my shoots edited in FCP or on various Avid platforms, and I don't think that FCP or the small PC based Avid systems have anything on PPro. In fact you can do more in naked PPro than you can in naked versions of FCP or Avid Express, etc. And if you talk about the Adobe Production Suite... Forget Aboutit...

Naked = no plugins, added software, or add-in cards.

I think that this is Adobe's fault. Other companies get their NLEs in independent films, features, and loads of documentaries. And they brag about it and highlight the fact.

None of that from Adobe though... not that I can see.

So if you like working in PPro, as do I, then I guess your not a Pro, and forget about getting a cutting gig with any interesting professional gigs, or features, or whatever... just keep cutting your weddings... Right?

I'm going to invest in new equipment soon. I'm thinking either AXIO with the non-professional CS3 suite, or FCP on a new Mac.


I respect the opinions of the users on the 2 or 3 forums that I participate in, so please give me your take on this!

Thanks!
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Old June 12th, 2008, 02:00 PM   #2
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I like editing itself with Premiere very much, and it`s a very capable software, but I can see why it`s little used in pro video:

-no kind of intermediate codec
-no batch processing/export
-audio export to professional DAW is next to unusable
-missing UI niceties like removing effects from all selected clips at once
-awkward CC that contaminates blacks
-not ready for film workflows
-bad code, little realtime, very bad memory management, piling up features instead of cleaning up the code, unstable

And despite all these facts, it`s the most expensive prosumer/pro NLE out there except Avid.
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Old June 12th, 2008, 02:23 PM   #3
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I edited our movie in Premiere Pro because it was the ONLY non-linear editor that could handle 4k 32 bit footage, 3 years ago. Obviously at the time, I had to use DV proxies to do the bulk of the editing but as the cut was locked, and 4k footage came online it was dropped in to generate the final 4k reels. Especially now with the Cineform codec, you can edit 4k in realtime for a low price point.

But anyone who's actually used most major NLE's know's there's not a ton of difference between them, and declaring that no professional work is or can be done with premiere is flat out ignorance.
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Old June 12th, 2008, 03:00 PM   #4
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The old 'mine's bigger than yours' syndrome

Who is defining 'pro'? And what does it mean?

Because you have a big lens does that make you a great camera operator?

I have a Ford and it's better than a GM, Batman is cooler than Spiderman, BBC is superior to commercial TV...etc etc

Let's not waste time debating this...it's not what you use, it's how you use it and what you achieve at the end that counts.

That's my 2 cents worth....
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Old June 12th, 2008, 04:43 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Sean Walsh View Post

Let's not waste time debating this...it's not what you use, it's how you use it and what you achieve at the end that counts.

That's my 2 cents worth....

Couldn't agree more. It's senseless to debate what the critics say, does it work for you?

Remember, a terrible movie edited in FCP is the same as a terrible movie edited in Premiere Pro. Just because it's FCP or Avid doesn't make it great.
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Old June 13th, 2008, 04:49 AM   #6
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Hello All,

All good answers.

As far as does it matter, well it depends on your business objectives (which is my only use for thees tools). I think it does matter for some of us. I do commercial work mostly, but I have produced a couple features and many shorts, documentaries, etc. It really depends on who you have to work with, I have to split my editing among different editors unexpectedly sometimes and finding an editor that can use the system that you started cutting your film on is easier if your NLE has wide use and acceptance among the professional editing community.

I had 5 reasons for this thread (not in priority):

1) I was offended by the comment in the article, because I like PPro and only wish it were more of a standard... that would make my life easier!

2) I wanted to see what you guys thought about PPro's strengths and weaknesses (Jiri Fiala came up with some valid points).

3) I wanted to possibly start an outcry for Adobe to be more proactive in its Branding (I know, not very realistic, but big change starts with small efforts).

4) Being that I must interface with so many different editors in my work, and I need to have an NLE that I can find editors that know it no matter where I am in the country, so I want to know what NLE you guys think would best address that issue.

5) I need recommendations for my next NLE purchase (should I spend a ton on a new AXIO system married to an NLE with limited acceptance, or go with FCP or Avid).


I know this is tough, and my objective is far from the "mines bigger than yours" debate, but given that I need the most universal system for under $10K that can actually give me the best results for my mix of work and the varied cameras that we use (BetaSP, DV, DVCPro 25/50, P2, Canon XLH1, several HD cams, super 16mm, 35mm, and whatever my DP at the time might be using).

You guys are great, I use DV Info Net and the Adobe forums as a valued resource, so thank you... I appreciate all of your comments and feedback :-)
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Old June 13th, 2008, 06:15 AM   #7
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I think if I was hiring in editors to cut material then AVID is possibly the 'more pro' because these editors tend to come from a broadcast background (sweeping generalisation, I know).

Having said that, there are lots of commercial houses using FCP and there are lots of people who are experienced using FCP....and that looks to be where the future is heading.

And a major drawback with AVID is ensuring it 'likes' your system.

Finding a PPRO editor is probably more tricky....and no broadcast organisation I've ever worked with uses Premiere and I don't think I've ever met an editor who uses Premiere professionally.

However, I like PPRO and have cut all my productions in the past two years using it - for me it's intuitive, flexible (lots of plug-ins), handles everything I ask of it and is comparatively low-cost.

If I had to make a business decision and was investing in a major overhaul of edit gear because of a high volume of work (I wish!), I think it would be very hard to argue against migrating to FCP - because it 'seems' to be more universal - i.e. you can always find someone who can operate it, it does the job really well and it's widely accepted as the de facto edit system for MAC.

But I'll always maintain a PPRO system - for me it's the 'best' PC-based system (for my needs), it's easy to work with, it doesn't require a block-buster PC to run on and it can be relied on to get the job done.
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Old June 13th, 2008, 06:58 AM   #8
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Thanks for that Sean.

I love PPro, I wish it was as accepted as FCP. The last 2 films that I worked on (I was a producer and I didn't do any editing... I'm not an editor for the majority of the work I do) were cut using FCP. All of the filmmakers that I know in my area of the world use FCP... bummer.

That's why I wanted your opinions, it's an issue of "what you like vs what you need" which is always conflicting :-(

Thanks Again!
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Old June 13th, 2008, 07:08 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Sean Walsh View Post

and no broadcast organisation I've ever worked with uses Premiere and I don't think I've ever met an editor who uses Premiere professionally.
I found this:

http://www.adobe.com/it/motion/customerstories.html
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Old June 13th, 2008, 08:19 AM   #10
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Hello :-)

I know that I am a bad Italian, but I don't speak the lingo. I was able to pick up some, and I did follow some of the links, but not confident enough to click around.

Is there an English version of that Adobe page?

Thanks!
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Old June 13th, 2008, 10:48 AM   #11
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Anthony - have a look at the current 'Fade to Gray at Avid Technology' thread - http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=123552 -

It makes interesting reading and raises questions about longer term investment/development of product at AVID.

And Andrea - great to see that PPRO is actually being used in a 'Pro' environment - I've obviously led a very sheltered life!

Although, come to think of it, I use it virtually every day in my business - so another great 'PPRO-PRO' example :)
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Old June 13th, 2008, 10:49 AM   #12
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try this...

http://www.adobe.com/products/creati...ion/customers/
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Old June 13th, 2008, 11:13 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Anthony Marotti View Post
Hello :-)

Is there an English version of that Adobe page?

Thanks!
Uhm, you might try Google and feed it with the URL. I haven't found that page on other Adobe corporate pages. It says Premiere was used at Sky Italia and Rai public italian television along with After Effects and the other programs.

My take on the subject is that Adobe is not interested in following FCp or Avid, as it can rely on Creative Suite integration.
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Old June 14th, 2008, 11:48 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Anthony Marotti View Post
Here is the quote: " but I don't know a single professional (or even aspiring professional) editor that uses Adobe Premier."
The quoted text says it all for me. The author is clearly ignorant about the topic, in his own words he doesn't know. I find this kind of statements simply bad journalism. If you don't know about something you keep your mouth shut or you go ahead and do your research. Speaking out of your ignorance is simply not good journalism. A letter to the editor about this would be probably the best way of correcting this for the future.
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Old June 14th, 2008, 08:57 PM   #15
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Premiere Pro is great for people who work on projects from the beginning of post to delivery.

In the 'professional' non linear editing world - this rarely happens. A different person might be digitiizing, a different person will be doing the cutting, a different person soundmixing, a different person will be onlining/doing the conform, a different person will be grading etc.

In this 'professional' environment of a series of specialist each doing their bit to make the end product (like a production line), having a NLE that will conform to this workflow is of utmost importance - this means you need to be using the thing that most other people can deal with - irrespective of quality or power of the big picture.

Final cut is inherently more flexible than Avid - but not as good as media management. That's why people who deal with TONS and TONS of footage (especially if it's still being delivered by tape) and doing lots of offline/online work still find Final Cut to be 'unprofessional'. It's an inappropriate tool for the job they are doing - of course, there is more than one type of editor (including those few who still work on physically cutting film on Moviolas) and more than one type of edit job.

However, for someone to be a purely professional editor (i.e they aren't wearing any other hats). They need to turn over a high amount of jobs, manage them effectively, and know they can fit with other peoples workflows.

That's why Avid was always the biggest game in town. This changed a little when Avids tape orientated workflow for media management got a little bamboozled by all the various HD file based/codec based delivery formats that started popping up. Final Cut finally started getting some respect professionally, because it could natively handle this very well and 'professionals' were actually forced to use it to be able to quickly cut the stuff that was coming in from producers. People started to get used to it, as they HAD to find ways for it to fit into their workflow, and now it's become one of two major players.

Premiere is further behind than both AVID and Final Cut on some key parts of the equation for purely cutting environments - and has traditionally offered very little to the pro world that would make it a must have. (A good example of this is 4K native editing - no one in the professional world 'edits' 4K natively, they edit offline and they conform in a much higher powered expensive system for the online IF they need a 4K master - which almost nobody does anyway. But if that's what YOU needed you very well could go with Premiere Pro - it's just not a big enough advantage to force it's way into the necessary workflow.)

Being a viable professional tool isn't about marketing, or snobbery - it's about having the requisite attributes that mean that the tool is MANDATORY, and following that up with being wild accepted as a standard.

Learning Premiere Pro on the route to becoming a professional editor at the moment is a bit akin to the early days learning desktop printing on inkjets when wanting to work in the world of professional printing presses - you'll get some of the same principles, and may be able to produce high quality products yourself - but it's not designed for the same scale of production from the ground up and thus isn't as accepted and thus isn't likely to get you work.

ADDENDUM:
In the world of delivering quick turn around professional looking video for the web - obviously a hugely growing environment, rather than traditional broadcast or film type work, Final Cut, Premiere Pro and even Sony Vegas all have AVID bet - hands down.

They offer the suite of tools in one package for one person to cut, spruce up and deliver the product in an uploadable format in a matter of hours if necessary, in a much more simple fashion that AVID does. If this is your 'professional' environment - then learn/use the tool that works for you, as it's such a single person environment that you really don't need to be part of a greater workflow - just recognise that if you want to be able to do both professional broadcast style editing, and this style of editing - the best tool is Final Cut because it has the largest amount of cross over.
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