30p on a 24p Timeline at DVinfo.net

Tripp Woelfel · December 24th, 2008, 08:09 PM

I shot an event in HD with three Canon cameras. Two of them were set to 24p but the HV10 doesn't support it so, being a pikey, I set it to 30p figuring it was close. I figured I'd have to do the pulldown in Premier Pro (CS3) but didn't know it would cause problems. The 30p footage in the final output looks like it's dumping the last six frames every second. Clearly I did a couple of things wrong.

First in the shooting, from the research I've done I'd be better off shooting 60i. Do I have this right?

Second, what's the best way to do the pulldown for both 30p and 60i?

Any input would be appreciated.

Paul Del Vecchio · December 25th, 2008, 05:40 PM

If you're working with a 24p timeline, and you had to choose between 60i and 30p, the best thing to do is shoot 60i. There is no good way to get 30p into 24p. 60i to 24p is better, or work with a 30p timeline for the footage. Combining the 30p and 24p in one timeline will result in bad results.

=(

Unfortunately, I dont think there's much you can do now. But for the future, if you're going to be editing with a 24p timeline, you should shoot either 24p (optimal.. obviously) or if you have to, 60i (last choice). 30p should not even be considered for a 24p timeline.

Tripp Woelfel · December 26th, 2008, 06:07 AM

Paul... Thanks. I rather thought that I might have painted myself into a corner shooting at 30p. If my thinking has any validity, 60i is a better choice because the pulldown will use fields to smooth the motion.

Fortunately the 30p footage is very B roll and the notchy playback is only noticeable for a few seconds in a couple of places.

I recollect that PP offers two options on how to do the pulldown, and I'll have to go back and look at those for future use. Is one way preferred over the other and if so, why? I'm curious because it's likely I'll shoot more 24p projects and I'll need to figure out the best way to integrate the HV10 footage.

Mike McCarthy · December 26th, 2008, 01:02 PM

You may get better results by retiming your 30p footage to 24fps, and just have it play slower. This will look smoother than dropping frames, but depending on the content, may look unnatural. Just a suggestion, won't work for every project.

Paul Del Vecchio · December 27th, 2008, 07:53 PM

Tripp --

Are you looking to combine HV10 footage with 24p footage from a DVX or XL2 or HVX, etc?

Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tripp Woelfel

Paul... Thanks. I rather thought that I might have painted myself into a corner shooting at 30p. If my thinking has any validity, 60i is a better choice because the pulldown will use fields to smooth the motion.

Fortunately the 30p footage is very B roll and the notchy playback is only noticeable for a few seconds in a couple of places.

I recollect that PP offers two options on how to do the pulldown, and I'll have to go back and look at those for future use. Is one way preferred over the other and if so, why? I'm curious because it's likely I'll shoot more 24p projects and I'll need to figure out the best way to integrate the HV10 footage.

Tripp Woelfel · December 28th, 2008, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Del Vecchio

Are you looking to combine HV10 footage with 24p footage from a DVX or XL2 or HVX, etc?

My universe is all Canon so I'm mixing it with an HV30 and an XH A1.

Paul Del Vecchio · December 29th, 2008, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tripp Woelfel

My universe is all Canon so I'm mixing it with an HV30 and an XH A1.

Hmm... I'm not familiar with XH A1 footage. Does it shoot 24p over 60i? That would be the only way I see it doing REAL 24p because it's HDV and records to tape, correct?

Tripp Woelfel · December 29th, 2008, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Del Vecchio

Hmm... I'm not familiar with XH A1 footage. Does it shoot 24p over 60i? That would be the only way I see it doing REAL 24p because it's HDV and records to tape, correct?

I'm not certain but that sounds right based upon all I've read. Others have hinted at the differences in the way different cameras do 24p but I've never seen a technical description of how Canon do it. Perhaps it's time I seek it out.

Canon refer to their version of 24p as 24f. I don't know if it's germain to your point but it's a data point that might help.

Mike McCarthy · December 29th, 2008, 09:16 PM

Canon's A1 does not add pulldown when shooting 24F, while their cheaper HV30 does add pulldown. That makes the A1 footage less compatible with other hardware. The A1 actually only records 24 frames to tape, in a propriety fashion. I have only used the original XL-H1, but I believe the A1 and G1 are similar in their 24F implementation. Ironically I believe the HV30 is capable of properly capturing 24F tapes, even though it can't record in that format.

Tripp Woelfel · December 30th, 2008, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike McCarthy

Ironically I believe the HV30 is capable of properly capturing 24F tapes, even though it can't record in that format.

That's true. I use the HV30 to capture 24f footage recorded with the A1.

Can you source your statements? I'm not questioning their accuracy, I'm just looking for more resources so I can wrap my head around this whole deal.

Mike McCarthy · December 30th, 2008, 01:16 PM

I have a HV30 at work, I either read that in the manual, or in an online review, but it was probably a year ago. No idea exactly where from.

Tripp Woelfel · December 30th, 2008, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike McCarthy

I have a HV30 at work, I either read that in the manual, or in an online review...

Thanks mate. I'll check out the manual.

Roger Shealy · January 1st, 2009, 07:29 PM

I believe the A1 (and HV30?) capture 24f in a 60i format, so any 60i player can be used to capture the tape to disc. Once there, the NLE has to pull down the 24f that is embedded in the 60i stream. Not sure about the HV30, whether it records 24f to a 60i stream.

Tripp Woelfel · January 2nd, 2009, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Shealy

I believe the A1 (and HV30?) capture 24f in a 60i format, so any 60i player can be used to capture the tape to disc.

I generally use an HV10 to capture all HDV footage. It will capture 60i footage from my HV30 and A1 but it will not capture 24f. I found this out by accident. The HV30 will capture A1 footage which indicates some compatibility between the two units.

If you look at Mike McCarthy's posts, he indicates that the HV30 and A1 use different schemes to create 24f and the A1 doesn't pull down 24f into 60i whilst the HV30 does.

Roger Shealy · January 2nd, 2009, 08:06 AM

Tripp,

So the HV30 can play the A1 24F(embedded in 60i) but the A1 can't play the HV30's 24F (native or embedded differently in 60i)?

December 24th, 2008, 08:09 PM	#1
Tripp Woelfel Trustee Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: North Conway, NH Posts: 1,745	30p on a 24p Timeline I shot an event in HD with three Canon cameras. Two of them were set to 24p but the HV10 doesn't support it so, being a pikey, I set it to 30p figuring it was close. I figured I'd have to do the pulldown in Premier Pro (CS3) but didn't know it would cause problems. The 30p footage in the final output looks like it's dumping the last six frames every second. Clearly I did a couple of things wrong. First in the shooting, from the research I've done I'd be better off shooting 60i. Do I have this right? Second, what's the best way to do the pulldown for both 30p and 60i? Any input would be appreciated.

December 25th, 2008, 05:40 PM	#2
Paul Del Vecchio Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Syosset, NY Posts: 61	If you're working with a 24p timeline, and you had to choose between 60i and 30p, the best thing to do is shoot 60i. There is no good way to get 30p into 24p. 60i to 24p is better, or work with a 30p timeline for the footage. Combining the 30p and 24p in one timeline will result in bad results. =( Unfortunately, I dont think there's much you can do now. But for the future, if you're going to be editing with a 24p timeline, you should shoot either 24p (optimal.. obviously) or if you have to, 60i (last choice). 30p should not even be considered for a 24p timeline. __________________ Triple E Productions - Award Winning Films/Services www.PaulDV.com

December 26th, 2008, 01:02 PM	#4
Mike McCarthy Major Player Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Northern California Posts: 517	You may get better results by retiming your 30p footage to 24fps, and just have it play slower. This will look smoother than dropping frames, but depending on the content, may look unnatural. Just a suggestion, won't work for every project. __________________ For more information on these topics, check out my tech website at www.hd4pc.com

December 29th, 2008, 09:16 PM	#9
Mike McCarthy Major Player Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Northern California Posts: 517	Canon's A1 does not add pulldown when shooting 24F, while their cheaper HV30 does add pulldown. That makes the A1 footage less compatible with other hardware. The A1 actually only records 24 frames to tape, in a propriety fashion. I have only used the original XL-H1, but I believe the A1 and G1 are similar in their 24F implementation. Ironically I believe the HV30 is capable of properly capturing 24F tapes, even though it can't record in that format. __________________ For more information on these topics, check out my tech website at www.hd4pc.com

December 30th, 2008, 01:16 PM	#11
Mike McCarthy Major Player Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Northern California Posts: 517	I have a HV30 at work, I either read that in the manual, or in an online review, but it was probably a year ago. No idea exactly where from. __________________ For more information on these topics, check out my tech website at www.hd4pc.com

December 26th, 2008, 06:07 AM	#3
Tripp Woelfel Trustee Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: North Conway, NH Posts: 1,745	Paul... Thanks. I rather thought that I might have painted myself into a corner shooting at 30p. If my thinking has any validity, 60i is a better choice because the pulldown will use fields to smooth the motion. Fortunately the 30p footage is very B roll and the notchy playback is only noticeable for a few seconds in a couple of places. I recollect that PP offers two options on how to do the pulldown, and I'll have to go back and look at those for future use. Is one way preferred over the other and if so, why? I'm curious because it's likely I'll shoot more 24p projects and I'll need to figure out the best way to integrate the HV10 footage.

January 1st, 2009, 07:29 PM	#13
Roger Shealy Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fayetteville, GA Posts: 772	I believe the A1 (and HV30?) capture 24f in a 60i format, so any 60i player can be used to capture the tape to disc. Once there, the NLE has to pull down the 24f that is embedded in the 60i stream. Not sure about the HV30, whether it records 24f to a 60i stream.

January 2nd, 2009, 08:06 AM	#15
Roger Shealy Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fayetteville, GA Posts: 772	Tripp, So the HV30 can play the A1 24F(embedded in 60i) but the A1 can't play the HV30's 24F (native or embedded differently in 60i)?