Using timecode in CS5.5 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Cross-Platform Post Production Solutions > Adobe Creative Suite

Adobe Creative Suite
All about the world of Adobe Premiere and its associated plug-ins.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 10th, 2011, 06:03 PM   #1
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Copenhagen Denmark
Posts: 70
Using timecode in CS5.5

Recorded a 4 hour stage show with 3 sony ex1. Set the timecode to Free run.

One of the cameras records continuously, while the other two record and pause at certain moments

Premiere pro is detecting those timecodes fine in the project window.

Now. How do I go about applying the whole thing onto a timeline, with the gaps inbetween?

I dont really need all clips to sync up to the other cameras. I just need each individual camera to be put in a timeline where the gaps in between recordings are present.
Dominik Krol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2011, 08:10 PM   #2
Wrangler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,093
Re: Using timecode in CS5.5

Assuming that all cameras had timecode synched, the easiest way I can think of is to place the continuously running camera's files on track 1, and the other two cameras' clips on track 2 and track 3 respectively. Shift-click the track 1 clip, right click and select "synchronize" from the menu. A pop will allow you to choose "by timecode." Repeat for each of the clips.

Caution: when a clip is moved, it will overlay another clip on its track. If that happens, just wait until you've moved all clips and grab the ends of any truncatd clips and drag them back to full length (if desired).

You can then duplicate the sequence a couple times and either hide or delete any tracks in a given copy of the sequence you don't need.

Obviously, those are PC instructions. Adjust the keystrokes for Mac.
__________________
Pete Bauer
The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein
Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!
Pete Bauer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11th, 2011, 06:51 AM   #3
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Copenhagen Denmark
Posts: 70
Re: Using timecode in CS5.5

Thank you..

But the cameras were not synced together.. they were simply set to free run individually, at around the same time.

If only Premiere could figure out the gaps in between recordings, it would be a simple task to sync them after the fact.

Im wondering why there is that thing called timecode, if a NLE dose not take full advantage of it.

What you are suggesting is that timecode can only be utilized in conjunction with a second camera that is genlocked, but never on its own.

I was hoping that I could make one timeline for each camera, and then banding them together for multicam.
Also to keep things organized, when Im going to do a 8 camera shoot next spring.


If there is no way to tell premiere (nativity or with a plugin) to read the free run timecode, and place each clip on the timeline with gaps, it would be a very disappointing failure from adobes side.

I would hate to go the pluraleyes approach, tho its currently the only way I know which can do what Im asking for.
Dominik Krol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11th, 2011, 10:00 AM   #4
Wrangler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,093
Re: Using timecode in CS5.5

I don't know of any automatic way to insert clips into a sequence so that they are synched to the sequence timecode. If we both are missing something, hopefully someone will show us. Otherwise, this would be an excellent feature to suggest for CS6.

It is somewhat manual, but you can still get the clips lined up pretty quickly:
- Put your CTI at the sequence location of the Media Start timecode of the first clip as shown in the Project Window (If the first clip has a Media Start of, say, 00;00;20;15 then place the CTI at that point on the sequence)
- Optional but recommended, create a numbered sequence marker at that point
- Drag the first clip onto the sequence to start at that point

Repeat for each clip. It sounds tedious, but each one only takes a few seconds so you could have a couple dozen clips synched up in only a few minutes.

Tips:
- If you click directly on a clip's Media Start timecode in the Project Panel and a white box will appear around it so it is easy to keep your eye on.
- To quickly create a numbered Sequence Marker, right click on the sequence's timecode ribbon. A dialog box will pop up and you can choose to create the marker at the CTI's current location.
- The yellow CTI timecode at the upper left of the Sequence Panel is clickable so you can manually edit the CTI location rather than scrolling, if you prefer.
- You can click the properties icon at the upper right of the Sequence Panel and there is an option to change the Start Time of the sequence.

But yeah, a synch option to line a clip up with the sequence time would be a great feature.

Dominik, I have to say if you are planning to do a lengthy 8 camera shoot without cameras that have their timecode synched, you are either more brave, more patient, or both than I could ever be!
__________________
Pete Bauer
The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein
Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!
Pete Bauer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11th, 2011, 01:39 PM   #5
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Woodinville, WA USA
Posts: 3,464
Re: Using timecode in CS5.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominik Krol View Post
I would hate to go the pluraleyes approach, tho its currently the only way I know which can do what Im asking for.
I think you're right; it is the only way to do this, although I'm not sure why you don't want to go this route, as the only thing it asks of you is to go get a cup of coffee while it does its thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominik Krol View Post
I'm wondering why there is that thing called timecode, if a NLE dose not take full advantage of it.

What you are suggesting is that timecode can only be utilized in conjunction with a second camera that is genlocked, but never on its own..
Interestingly, the EX3 has genlock, while the Z7, Z5 and V1 have TC LINK. The EX1 has neither, so there is no way to truly sync your cams.

In any event, TC does many other truly useful things other than what you are proposing which, while certainly creative, is a rather unusual way to edit. If you would like Adobe to offer this as a feature, the best way to accomplish this is to file a feature request asking them to have a way to match sync timecode to sequence timecode. I've never heard of anyone needing this but they just might accommodate you if they get enough other requests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominik Krol View Post
...But the cameras were not synced together.. they were simply set to free run individually, at around the same time.

If only Premiere could figure out the gaps in between recordings, it would be a simple task to sync them after the fact. ...I was hoping that I could make one timeline for each camera, and then banding them together for multicam. ...If there is no way to tell premiere (nativity or with a plugin) to read the free run timecode, and place each clip on the timeline with gaps, it would be a very disappointing failure from adobes side.....
With all due respect, I'm sure this is a new and creative way to do multicam, but it's a little bit ungainly, and I don't think the fact that Adobe doesn't think the way you do is a failure on Adobe's part. Again, meaning no disrespect.

When we shoot multicam, we never start and stop any of the cams during the performance except at intermission. We use free run, time of day TC, and we sync all out cams using TC LINK. As it turns out, that's wasted effort, as Premiere won't let you sync by timecode if you've recorded m2t files to a card (it will if you've recorded to tape -- go figure) so we just sync using an audio spike. Takes about ten minutes per act.

But obviously everyone has a different workflow.
__________________
"It can only be attributable to human error... This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error."
Adam Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11th, 2011, 02:59 PM   #6
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Copenhagen Denmark
Posts: 70
Re: Using timecode in CS5.5

Adam Thank you for your input.

I was not aware, that my approach would be "new" or "creative" But then again im autistic, and do tend to think differently.

I find the approach very straight forward, and do not really see any other, more suitable way, to do a multicam production. If you dont have high(er) end cameras with genlock or TC sync.

Most prosumer cameras do have free run however, and the very fact that PluralEyes software does exist, is evidence that people who cant sync cameras together, need something to do it with in post. How "no one" has thought what I am thinking to do, is beyond me. It sounds so simple and the immediate thing to do. But as you say, it might just be me.

I've heard people mention earlier the rule about; "never to stop recording when multicam shooting".
That workflow seems rather outdated and silly.. There is no reason what so ever, to have people keep shooting, if they know that they are recording garbage. Besides. Camera operators need breaks. Batteries and disks need to be replaced.
And then there is the post side of the coin.
Do you really want to spend extra time reviewing footage that is unusable?
Having a "shoot if you have something to shoot" policy, saves me 20+ hours in the edit bay, on a 8 camera production which takes 4 hours to cover. I really don't want to spend time checking when cam 4 has something interesting in frame, or comes back from the bathroom.
Had it been a 4 cam shoot only. I could have simply used multicam to cut the whole thing, and see in real time which camera has something useful.

Peter. Im not entirely sure how your approach is. But it sounds like you want to copy paste time code data between clips and timeline..
I thought about it, and if I had to choose I would most likely pick PluralEyes to do the task instead.

Asking Adobe to do anything is like asking the local convenient store salesman to give you the winner lottery ticket. I think I would have better chances with maybe asking the company behind PluralEyes to add FreeRun timecode sync option to their software, and make it a internal plugin.
It makes perfect sense. Doesn't it?
Dominik Krol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11th, 2011, 07:46 PM   #7
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Woodinville, WA USA
Posts: 3,464
Re: Using timecode in CS5.5

Dominik, based on the questions you are asking about multicam production, either A) you're not clear about what multicam production and editing is and what it is commonly used for, or B) you are at a creative and technical level so far above me that I simply am not even understanding your questions. I highly doubt it is A so it must be B.

If you are using your other cams for simple B roll inserts, then "multicam" is not what you really need. And I am very perplexed about your idea about using 8 different timelines. Do you mean 8 tracks and one timeline? Premiere can't do that -- it is limited to four tracks at a time. I cannot imagine how ungainly eight separate timelines would be. You may think of this as very simple but the built-in way Premiere does it is, to my mind, far simpler.

But you don't need any timecode at all -- free run, rec run or anything run -- to do multicam editing in Premiere. You can simply find a manual sync point and off to the races you go. And in fact that's what PluralEyes is for, as you very correctly pointed out.

The fact that you started your free run TC at "around" the same time is a red flag. If your cams aren't exactly in sync (if they are shooting different angles of the same thing) then you're in trouble. If they are not shooting the same thing then you do not need to use the multicam function.

Interestingly, the Z1 does not have a TC LINK function, so Chris wrote a tutorial on how to sync multiple Z1s using the wireless remote and it is posted here on the site; you may be able to use this to sync your EX1s in a pinch.
__________________
"It can only be attributable to human error... This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error."
Adam Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12th, 2011, 04:28 AM   #8
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Copenhagen Denmark
Posts: 70
Re: Using timecode in CS5.5

Adam. I know for sure that Premiere can handle 8 streams of video at the same time. (it only cant do it using the multicam edit function)
Whether they are individual timelines, or tracks is irrelevant, since you can put timelines into eachother and thereby make a 8 track timeline from several timelines. (if that makes any sense). Or actually I would copy paste the footage together into one timeline after trimming each camera.

Why would I do that? To keep things clean and easy to edit.
By trimming each camera separately, to contain ONLY useful footage present on the timeline, saves me a lot of time.
The advantages of this are, that immediately I have less footage to work with. (gaps in the timeline) And I know 100% that every camera angle in the timeline has good content.
Editing this way is a blast, where you can't really make any mistakes. No matter which camera you cut to, will have a good picture. So you can concentrate on the creative process, instead of worrying about whether the camera operator is in focus or isn't about to reframe. And you also know when the "moment" is gone. (gap in the timeline)

This approach may sound very strange, but it's the best way I know to make the job done with a NLE that can only handle 4 streams at a time in multicam edit. I simply wont use multicam edit at all.
Otherwise I would have to multicam edit three times. First with 4 cameras x 2, and then multicam edit the multicam edits. That will be messy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gold View Post
But you don't need any timecode at all -- free run, rec run or anything run -- to do multicam editing in Premiere. You can simply find a manual sync point and off to the races you go. And in fact that's what PluralEyes is for, as you very correctly pointed out.
You do if you want to allow your operators to start stop recording at times where they have nothing interesting in frame. And I definitely do want that. Unless you use PluralEyes to fill/maintain the gaps (which I do not want). I wanted to use the free run timecode to fill those gaps (faster) as its what its made for in the first place.. Why else would you have a free run timecode if not for gap filling/maintaining? Its the only function it has really. (unless you have genlock/TC link of course).
I've heard that the new Final cut X has this functionality of gap filling with free run timecode. Sadly Im a PC guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gold View Post
The fact that you started your free run TC at "around" the same time is a red flag. If your cams aren't exactly in sync (if they are shooting different angles of the same thing) then you're in trouble. If they are not shooting the same thing then you do not need to use the multicam function.
Not really.. As long the temporal integrity is maintained in each camera (gap filling with free run timecode) you dont need them to be synced. And you just gave the solution for it yourself.
QUOTE: "You can simply find a manual sync point and off to the races you go"

I just don't want to keep doing that every time an operator presses start and stop. THAT would be silly.

Maybe I should make a video tutorial when I'm editing the job.

Last edited by Dominik Krol; October 12th, 2011 at 05:14 AM.
Dominik Krol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12th, 2011, 10:33 AM   #9
Wrangler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,093
Re: Using timecode in CS5.5

Dominik, I think I understand your constraints and workflow better now. In terms of placing multiple free-run clips from the same camera in their place on a sequence, my explanation may not have been too clear so I'll try to phrase it differently. You obviously know Premiere quite well so if I explain this manual method better, I hope it will be helpful:

In the project panel, there is a Media Start column for each clip. If you click on the timecode shown there, a white box will surround it. This is optional and just makes it easy to see the numbers.

In the sequence, just move your Current Time Indicator (CTI) to that point on the timeline. You can simply scroll the CTI or edit the yellow CTI numbers in the upper left of that sequence panel.

Then drag the clip from the Project Panel into a track on the sequence so that the beginning of the clip snaps to the CTI. The timecode of the clip and timecode of the sequence will now match.

Optionally, I recommend placing a numbered sequence marker once the CTI is in position. This allows you to exactly place the clip again if you accidentally move it later.

Repeat this for each clip from that camera. A manual process, but doesn't take long.

If you won't be able to use cameras that can synch timecode, I agree with Adam that the technique of simultaneously resetting the free run timecode for all cameras using a single remote control button push is very useful. They may be a few frames off, but to synch one camera to another later is MUCH easier if their TCs are close.

I've never used Plural Eyes so can't comment. Others seem to like it.
__________________
Pete Bauer
The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein
Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!
Pete Bauer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12th, 2011, 12:55 PM   #10
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Woodinville, WA USA
Posts: 3,464
Re: Using timecode in CS5.5

See, I knew it had to be "B". You've clearly developed a new workflow and technique that works for you, and that's great.

But the thing is, it seems to me, is you're trying to use a tool to do something it wasn't designed to do, and then blaming the tool. My take is that the multicam function is designed around the paradigm of a live production and live cutting where the concept of not shooting everything doesn't exist. The four-cam limitation (and of course I was referring to only the multicam function -- Premiere can, in a practical sense, handle as many tracks otherwise as you can throw at it, subject only to the limitations of your processor) notwithstanding, the tool is designed around the idea that all cams are focused on the show and you are simply choosing the best shot at any given moment. There is no reviewing and no bathroom breaks or anything like that, and if one shot is bad you can scroll back and do a re-take if necessary. It takes 2 hours to cut a 2-hour show, and then you can go back and fine tune, just as you would if you were doing this live in a real production truck in the alley out back of the theatre (except without the $2 million price tag).

You say you don't want to have to bother re-syncing every time you start and stop the cam, but that's the whole point -- if you didn't keep stopping and starting you'd only have to sync once, at the beginning. And for the shows we shoot, there is never a time when there is nothing worth shooting -- while the show is going on we are shooting and when it ends we stop. Card space is cheap and we change cards at intermission. We have 2 1/2 hours per card. Our batteries last 10 hours.

What you are talking about is something entirely different and new and very creative, but it's a different animal and no doubt something they didn't anticipate. (Whether they should have foreseen this is a different discussion, I suppose.) It's brilliant but it's like buying a screwdriver and then saying it is a poor tool because the handle breaks when you use it as a hammer. It's just not how it was designed to be used.

But you and Pete have come up with some great ideas and I look forward to hearing how well they work out for you. I feel like an old dinosaur because I still use things the old established ways. One of the great things about this forum is every day I learn new ways of doing things that I never would have imagined.

As a side note, I'm not sure I share your cynicism about the Premiere team and their willingness to add features or "correct a flaw," however you choose to look at this issue. Especially with the latest releases, they have been very active on these boards and quite responsive, so I think filing a bug report and a feature request could prove useful. In any event, if you don't try you have no right to accuse them of not addressing your issue.
__________________
"It can only be attributable to human error... This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error."
Adam Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12th, 2011, 01:41 PM   #11
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 444
Re: Using timecode in CS5.5

Dominik, the industry solution for thisis normally to use time of day (TOD) timecode and have the cameras kept on throughout production. That way as the timecode is based on a timestamp they will line up pretty closely (not frame accurate without genlock, but not to make fixes quick). You just need tomake sure the cameras clocks are all set in sychronization at the start of each day.

I am not familiar with all your cameras so don't know if they can all be set to TOD timecode but itis very common.

This comes from manual workflows, the fact that there are automatic workflows like plural eyes these days is a huge technical advantage for both audio sync and multicam, taking advangage of it when its suitable can be a huge time saver.

TOD timecode does work, but its a manual process that can be interrupted by operator error on the camera operators part, hence the benefit of having a backup workflow like plural eyes.
__________________
www.afterglow.co.nz
Craig Parkes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12th, 2011, 03:12 PM   #12
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Copenhagen Denmark
Posts: 70
Re: Using timecode in CS5.5

Adam: I agree with everything you said.. The workflow you describe is what I usually use when I do 4 camera shoot.. I cannot do that with 8 cams..
Im curious to know how you would edit if you had more than 4 cameras to edit? In other words, to use your own analogy. Where is the "hammer" in premiere pro?

Adobe is a big company, and unless enough people request something, it wont be implemented..
I have suggested many many features which have never been used, so I have basis for my skepticism.
Adobe is a great company and they build great tools. That is why I chose Premiere as my main edit bay. But it does have its limits, and only popular requests become reality.

I kinda use this thread to spread my workflow, so that maybe in the future others than me will appreciate the power of free run timecode, and request it as a feature :)

Peter: Yes I figured what you were suggesting was a manual copy paste based workflow. Then in any case PluralEyes is a faster method if you have a good audio track.
The remote control idea is a good one, if only premiere could use the synced data for anything which it cant.

Craig: I am not sure how you would set TOD timecode on an EX1, and if you could.. How you would sync them down to the millisecond. (same as Peters remote approach?)

There is one problem left tho..Which is, that even with a timecode present which is synced and everything,. Premiere cannot sync a whole bunch of clips in one selection. You have to select only two clips in correspondence to each other and then select synchronize.. So that method is also out of the question. Premiere simply does not have a very good timecode handling.

PluralEyes is currently the only way to go, and it boggles me.. I think I will give them a buzz :)

Last edited by Dominik Krol; October 12th, 2011 at 06:07 PM.
Dominik Krol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12th, 2011, 07:31 PM   #13
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Woodinville, WA USA
Posts: 3,464
Re: Using timecode in CS5.5

The short answer is: With 8 cameras, The Hammer is Edius. The long answer is, when I do six-cam shoots, I edit with a normal 4-cam multicam timeline and then drop in my other 2 cams as B-roll cutaways on a normal timeline.

But I was thinking about something. Couldn't you match track 1 (your continuous track) to the timeline timecode and then lock it, and sync the other clips to it just as Pete suggests in his first response? Wouldn't that serve the same purpose as syncing to the sequence timecode? Or are you looking for something more automated than even that, more like Plural Eyes but native to Premiere, which would automatically sync all clips to Sequence timecode?

You set TOD TC on the EX1 by setting CLOCK instead of FREE RUN. This assumes you have the clock time set correctly and identically on all your cams. It is accurate only down to the frame but before you said you started your FREE RUN only "around" the same time so accuracy can't be that important to you, as you said it matters not whether your cams are actually in sync.

What still confuses me is that there is a perfect ideal tool to do exactly what you want, and you still seem to be opposed to it and I cannot figure out why....
__________________
"It can only be attributable to human error... This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error."
Adam Gold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12th, 2011, 08:27 PM   #14
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Copenhagen Denmark
Posts: 70
Re: Using timecode in CS5.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gold View Post
Couldn't you match track 1 (your continuous track) to the timeline timecode and then lock it, and sync the other clips to it just as Pete suggests in his first response? Wouldn't that serve the same purpose as syncing to the sequence timecode? Or are you looking for something more automated than even that, more like Plural Eyes but native to Premiere, which would automatically sync all clips to Sequence timecode?
Yes this has all to do with my autistic obsession about perfection. There is this tool called timecode, and I'm obsessed about, why Adobe does not utilize it.

I will end up using PluralEyes, and I will get good results and all. Its just an frustration about not being able to use the perfect tool for the job, which is timecode. It's what its made for. Why wont it work? That is what my brain is nagging me about.

Doing this manually as Peter suggested is a no go for me. To much copy pasting/clicking/typing, and Ive got some traces of rheumatism in my fingers already.

Don't worry. PluralEyes will get the job done. I already made some tests. But I refuse to give up on the timecode issue.. It would make the match up within 5 seconds, instead of 20 minutes.

Edius you say? I will have to take a look..

Last edited by Dominik Krol; October 12th, 2011 at 11:14 PM.
Dominik Krol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12th, 2011, 11:10 PM   #15
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Copenhagen Denmark
Posts: 70
Re: Using timecode in CS5.5

Adam. Thank you for the tip about Edius.

I have just played around with it, and it does exactly what I need it to do.
I simply switch to multicam mode and timecode sync point, select all the clips I want to use, and drag them to the timeline.

The program is so brilliant that it even can figure out which clips belong to which camera.
Everything is where it's supposed to be. Each camera on its own track at the right time with all the gaps in between, and all I need to do is to find a common sync point at the beginning of each track, since my free run time codes were not synced against each other. Voila.

After multicam editing, I export a AAF type 3 to premiere pro to color correct and finalize my project. Done.

I found my hammer!!!!

Thank you.

My opinion about failure on Adobes side in this matter, now has more merit then ever.
Dominik Krol is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Cross-Platform Post Production Solutions > Adobe Creative Suite

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:35 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network