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Old May 7th, 2013, 05:23 PM   #31
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Re: It's not Creative Suite anymore... news from Adobe

Adobe has lost their sense of direction and rips off all their European customers with their pricing structure. See Adobe Community: Adobe, when will you get your pricing structure in order?
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Old May 7th, 2013, 05:25 PM   #32
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Re: It's not Creative Suite anymore... news from Adobe

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Originally Posted by Andy Wilkinson View Post
OK I've scan read about 200 comments on the official Adobe forum about this whilst waiting for a render to complete. Lots and lots of unhappiness...(the render came out fine though!)

One thing that has come up several times (and on this thread here on DVinfo) is the steep pricing those for us in Europe and Oz (for example) as to what we are expected to pay with the monthly subscription model, compared to the $600/year US pricing at the full-rate, which does not seem so bad (i.e. $50/month after the first year - assuming you've been a recent CS owner). The other big worry is who knows what that charge will be in 2014, 2015, 2016...

I know taxes are different in various regions etc. (and in the UK we really get gouged on taxes...don't get me going on that one) but I think Adobe will need to fix at least some of the huge regional imbalances pretty quickly if they don't want to see vast swathes of the globe abandoning their software going forward (or at least using a boxed set until the've switched to something else).

When I switched to CS5.5 from FCS2 with the original FCP X debacle, I really thought Adobe were "listening" to what us video pros wanted...now I'm really doubting that. I've also been using Vegas on and off for years so I'm not exactly worried about switching yet again.

About the only reason I can think of that the've gone this repeated/periodic cloud subscription verification route is to counteract software piracy - I can certainly understand that aspect. However, there must be a better way so that those of us who pay our way don't get gouged whilst still allowing those periodic checks - surely!

I just hope Adobe are listening - heck, perhaps Apple were not so bad after all - compared to this ;-)
Andy, is there any hard info about pricing outside of America? Adobe's price gouging has been a big issue for me because it is unjustified ó I pay 30-50% more for my Adobe apps than people in America. So with this in mind, I tried going through the subscription process as far as I could go without clicking on the final Confirm button. With a perpetual license, I was always forced to the Adobe Oz online store as soon as I signed in (I am in New Zealand), but this didnít happen. It could be that Iíd hit a wall when I got to the stage of entering my credit card number. I was not prepared to venture past that Confirm button to find out. Or it might be one price for all regardless of where you live.

Somebody mentioned the move to the Cloud only model as a possible anti-piracy strategy. I think the pirates will be lining up to be the first to get the kudos of hacking Cloud versions of Adobeís apps.

Apparently CS6 will remain available with a perpetual license. If all the people who have said they wonít buy into the Cloud keep their word, then that would be an opportunity for third party plug-in vendors to provide their versions of significant future features. Bottom line is that Adobe absolutely knew what the reaction to the Cloud only announcement would be, and are not going to alter their position, so as customers, each of us have to decide how we will deal with it.

There is a 70% discount for the Student Teacher package. So when the Cloud versions become significantly more powerful than CS6, I am thinking of approaching our local tech colleges, and offering my services as a tutor.
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Old May 7th, 2013, 09:10 PM   #33
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Re: It's not Creative Suite anymore... news from Adobe

Trevor,

See the table in the very first post on the Adobe forum thread linked to by Harm, the post immediately before your post....at least as a likely indication. For example, Adobe CC subscription is (currently) £47 a month in the UK and even more in mainland Europe.

However, as you see, the table only covers US versus EU price comparisons, so someone from Oz or NZ who is already a paid up subscriber will have to enlighten you on what it actually costs in your neck of the woods.

I did read of an Oz price somewhere (I think) but that was in an another Adobe forum thread with about 200 comments.... so not easily found again!
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Old May 7th, 2013, 09:52 PM   #34
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Re: It's not Creative Suite anymore... news from Adobe

I've been a loyal Adobe customer since I started editing video with CS2.
I understand the concern of preventing piracy, and I have no problem with that.
Like so many others, I don't like the idea of "renting" software, or running the risk of not being able to work for lack of internet access or a down server among what will need to be a gigantic farm.

What DOES concern me the most is if some erroneous CC update somehow slips through testing and a bad version, or one with a major bug, gets unleashed on the entire community, either by accident or on purpose by one of those proverbially "disgruntled employees". (God forbid it turns out to be something that alters CC-stored files). And to compound the situation, I may not know about it for 6 months? Do I correctly understand this: that it's within the realm of possibility that NO ONE working in CC could make any progress until the "bad version" or bug is corrected?

"... more than a half million paid members, and well over 2 million free members have signed up for Creative Cloud".
I can't understand how Adobe is willing to risk stopping so many (and apparently, soon to be all) of it's customers dead in the water AT THE SAME TIME. It may be extremely unlikely, but if it WERE to happen, projects wouldn't just "jump ship"...it seems they'd go down with it.

Personally, I'm both disappointed and upset by this decision, and will have to consider all the options for my particular future.
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Old May 7th, 2013, 10:51 PM   #35
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Re: It's not Creative Suite anymore... news from Adobe

OK, I've just ordered CS6 Production Premium (Mac upgrade version from the CS 5.5.2 that I'm currently using).

It cost me £298 + VAT plus delivery (from CVP here in the UK - should be back in stock in a few days). For about 300 Quid that buys me and my business a bit of stability for the next year or two and most importantly for me it comes on discs in a box. I can still use it in 5 years time - if I so wish.

Not a pleasant decision but one I felt "forced" to make - no thanks to Adobe. However, it's simply a business decision. I for one will NOT be going the monthly rental route.

Why throw (more) money at Adobe now??? Well Adobe have at least "promised" that they will keep CS6 updated with bug fixes and able to work on the next OS versions that are coming (for both Mac and Windows). Time will tell if they keep those promises...but for sure there will be a LOT of eyes on that. So if they wish to retain (regain?) ANY credibility I'm sure they will. Sure, future "new features" will only come to the CC version but I'm OK missing out on those - or will find other solutions as needed.

As to whether or not Adobe will get any more money from me depends on how they handle this whole "Adobegate" debacle. It's looking pretty unlikely right now.

In the meantime, I don't have to worry (too much) about using my current main NLE tool of choice for the next 1-2, maybe 3 years...who knows after that! I suspect this leaves a huge opportunity for Apple and some others mentioned earlier to exploit really well - maybe FCP X will evolve into the tool I really want, or others will in this newly created void. Heck, I still have clients who occasionally need editing work to update films done 3-5 years ago in FCP 6.0.6 and I have stuff done in Vegas Pro too!

I'm sure some of you think I'm mad but that's my solution to this mess. A "one off" payment of £300 and then I can sit tight, at least for a while.

Now, back to editing!
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Old May 8th, 2013, 02:02 AM   #36
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Re: It's not Creative Suite anymore... news from Adobe

First.. was the yearly upgrade price actually cheaper than the monthly cost of the new subscription model? Maybe I read wrong, but I thought the update from CS 5 to CS 5.5 was like $595 or something (US anyway). If they come out with another upgrade 6 months from now and you gotta pay that then you're already paying more than the yearly cost.

Second, while I won't hold my breath, I suspect that with this model, they're planning on more frequent updates.. hopefully not just bug fixes but feature additions. Like I said.. don't hold your breath, but maybe they will pleasantly surprise.

Third, the main reason.. really the only reason I think it's not such a great deal is because you either pay for 2 apps or ALL apps, that's it. Yet, in various segments of the industry, I could see three or four of the apps being a great deal at like $20 a month. I for one use Audacity for audio.. not "as good" as Audition, but good enough. I really only use Premiere, AE sometimes, and Photoshop, with MediaEncoder (which should not be charged for in any package). I'd love to pay $20 a month for those three main apps with an optional $5 a month for Encore and just do a one time pay from time to time to use it when I am ready to burn a movie and make a slick dvd/bluray menu.

Now a question for those that may have tried Vegas... the Sony Vegas 12 Pro suite looks really good. I don't know if any of the apps in it compare, but I do know that Sound Forge was (is?) one of the best audio apps out there. I've read/heard good things about Sony's NLE, including better support for formats like RED, DNxHD, etc.. which surprised me given Adobe's stature in this industry. The 12 Pro comes with a very slick AE like app called HitFilm. It's not quite as powerful in some ways as AE (probably in many), yet it looks like it would be much faster to work with in most indie film (and hobbyist) work, including various easy to add FX, movie look, flares, particles, and tons of 3D models to work with. For the price, it looks to be a very good deal when compared to the full suite of Adobe's offering.

Sadly, nothing can come close to the LightRoom/Photoshop one/two punch for photo editing.

If they offered an a la carte option at $5 per app and you could pick/choose the apps you want, I'd be on board. But this $50 a month, while not steep, I don't need or use more than half the apps so for me it's a waste.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 02:20 AM   #37
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Re: It's not Creative Suite anymore... news from Adobe

Who else forces you to pay monthly for a lot of things you don't want, to get one or
two things you do want? Cable companies. You can't pick the 3 or 4 channels you
want and only pay for them, you must buy the 'America's top 40' package or
something similar. I can see exactly where this CC thing is headed. Like I keep
saying, look at cell phone and cable service for clues to the future of Creative Cloud.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 03:08 AM   #38
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Re: It's not Creative Suite anymore... news from Adobe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Wilkinson View Post
Trevor,

See the table in the very first post on the Adobe forum thread linked to by Harm, the post immediately before your post....at least as a likely indication. For example, Adobe CC subscription is (currently) £47 a month in the UK and even more in mainland Europe.

However, as you see, the table only covers US versus EU price comparisons, so someone from Oz or NZ who is already a paid up subscriber will have to enlighten you on what it actually costs in your neck of the woods.

I did read of an Oz price somewhere (I think) but that was in an another Adobe forum thread with about 200 comments.... so not easily found again!
Andy and Harm

I've spent a lot of time trying to tie down CC pricing for Oz and NZ, and I honestly don't think there is a price hike for us. It took me a while because I was constantly being redirected away from the Adobe.com/au and adobe.com/nz sites, and seeing pricing in US dollars. But I did finally find what appears to be a clear and definitive price, and my position regarding CC is definitely softening. (See attached screen grab)

The Oz$ was, near as damn it, identical to the US$ five minutes ago, so I can get the entire CC for US$20 a month for the first year, because I own CS6 apps. Heck, that's cheap as chips! It works out at about NZ$740 a year which is a small fraction of what it would cost me to update my Adobe perpetual license apps. It cost me more than that just to update Photoshop from CS5 to CS6 (I was buying individual apps back then).

It seems to me that I can join the Cloud in Mid July, and for US$600 get a whole year to see what I think of it. That would maximise the time for possible updates, and I'd still have my CS6 products to evaluate the Cloud against, and to fall back on if I am not convinced.

To put it in perspective, I used to pay NZ$40/month for my cell phone and 'very' limited data plan that I almost never used. (I swapped that to a pay as you go months and months ago, and am still using the $40 credit I had on it.)

Yesterday I paid NZ$25 for 500Gb of data for my iPad SIM, but I am rarely away from a WiFi source.

I pay (about) NZ$80/month for my 120Gb broadband plan, and won't even blink at $120/month when UFB get's switched on some time this year.

My truck is single handedly trying to use up the world's remaining energy reserves, and while I will admit to a slight feeling of unease at the NZ$170 it cost to fill the tank way more often than I'd like (at least three times a month) there is no way I am going to do without my gear transporter that goes anywhere.

So US$19/month is not worth a second thought, and $50/month really isn't the end of the world, _AND_ it works out less than it would cost me to keep up with perpetual license updates. Unless I have got it very wrong somewhere, I think I shall be signing up.
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It's not Creative Suite anymore... news from Adobe-cc-oz-pricing.jpg  
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Old May 8th, 2013, 03:17 AM   #39
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Re: It's not Creative Suite anymore... news from Adobe

I'm pretty much in agreement with Kevin and Andy over this. I already own CS6 versions of Premiere, Audition and Photoshop - and these are the only Adobe offerings for which I haver the slightest use.

Photoshop and Audition in their present form do all that I want, though I do miss the odd feature in Audition that went AWOL when Adobe went for the MAC market a couple of years ago. But I also have Audition CS3, so no worries there. I expect that Adobe will add new features over the years, but do I need them? Not really, I am sure there are better ways of spending my money than lining the pockets of Adobe shareholders and executives.

Unfortunately Premiere CS6 is not so clear cut. The spanned AVCHD fiasco is an occasional major problem, and I do like the Warp Stabiliser. For some clips it is better than Mercalli - e.g. it avoids the jello effect on shots such as a seal on a rock with a choppy sea background. But in its present form, it is a pain to use. There is the project file bloat, the ticktime error, and the delay when cutting a clip with the effect applied from the sequence, and more. I get round the project file bloat by exporting corrected clips to a Lagarith AVI, so I can live with this too.

Then there is the usual Adobe rip-off of non-US customers who have to pay significantly more for the same download from the same server - see Harm Millard's analysis of prices for a range of European countries to appreciate this.

The only problem is future Windows evolution, and CS6 compatibility, but I do not like the way Windows is going either - I have neither smart phone nor tablet, and cannot conceive of a situation where I might have such devices. So Windows 7 is all I need here. If in time to come when Microsoft abandon support and there are no more security patches, then my editing system will have to be disconnected from the internet, and I shall use either my laptop or my wife's computer for internet purposes.

So, I have been an Adobe customer for thirteen years, but this is unlucky thirteen for them, and the end of the line for me as an Adobe customer.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 03:32 AM   #40
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Re: It's not Creative Suite anymore... news from Adobe

Alan, I'll be interested to hear where Harm got his data, because if you look at the screen grab in the last post, you'll see it cost the same in Oz and NZ as in the USA. (OZ and US dollars are within 0.1% of each other today.)

It would _almost_ be worth the cost to fix the Canon MXF files with AE issue, and I have to admit to being excited to try the new Photoshop deblur tool.

If I sign up, I will view it as costing me $600 for a year's evaluation of the Cloud. If the service and new features are good enough, I'll decide where to go from there.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 04:28 AM   #41
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Re: It's not Creative Suite anymore... news from Adobe

Interestingly Editshare decided to go with what they term as an annual lease or subscription for the Pro version of Lightworks. This gets you the annual license to use commercial codecs and other features, if you don't renew you can continue to use the free version. Many users use third party transcoding software with the free version, so it's never been an issue for them.

To date there hasn't been many complaints, although if you don't want to buy into this method I guess you don't get involved. In pure cost terms the Lightworks model does make sense for the user. However, you do need other software like AE if you want heavy duty effects work, since Lightworks is primarily an editing program with more limited range of effects.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 04:31 AM   #42
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Re: It's not Creative Suite anymore... news from Adobe

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Originally Posted by Andy Wilkinson View Post
About the only reason I can think of that the've gone this repeated/periodic cloud subscription verification route is to counteract software piracy - I can certainly understand that aspect. However, there must be a better way so that those of us who pay our way don't get gouged whilst still allowing those periodic checks - surely!
Piracy has nothing to do with it. New versions will be cracked and out there within a week as usual.

This is all about stopping revenue spikes around new releases and stopping people hanging onto old versions without upgrading. It also does away with retailers who want their cut.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 04:41 AM   #43
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Re: It's not Creative Suite anymore... news from Adobe

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The only problem is future Windows evolution, and CS6 compatibility, but I do not like the way Windows is going either
Rumour has it a future update to Windows 8 may back off from the touch screen approach and give more of a traditional Windows feel. It seems when customers vote with their wallets, large corporations do listen.

Meanwhile people would do well to note that the apps in the "Cloud" are still the same as CS6. So don't get sucked in by Adobe's special offers as you'll pay paying twice for the same thing if you already have CS6. Yes there are some extras but your basic Premiere etc hasn't been updated as far as I can see.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 05:28 AM   #44
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Re: It's not Creative Suite anymore... news from Adobe

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This is all about stopping revenue spikes around new releases and stopping people hanging onto old versions without upgrading. It also does away with retailers who want their cut.
Also stops you shopping around for the best deal. I bought a new anti virus program disk on line from a well known retailer, rather than downloading directly from the maker, there was quite a price difference.
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Old May 8th, 2013, 06:23 AM   #45
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Re: It's not Creative Suite anymore... news from Adobe

Actually, Marcus I did not write that line in your post two above this about future Windows evolution/the way it's going. You have miss-quoted me somehow....

That's not to say I don't agree with it - I just don't want to be accused of stealing others thoughts!!!! ;-)

All a great discussion, by the way. Just hope Adobe reads it (but I doubt it'll change their path).
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