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Old December 14th, 2002, 02:37 PM   #16
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Steve,

What's the old saying, "You either have time, or money, but never both at the same time?"

I am in an extremely fortunate moment now, to have both. Hence the choice of Avid. But like I said, it's not for everyone. It's a HUGE step up from premiere or VV, but a quick step over if you've been using a Symphony or Express.

I have some short films in the can, and some small projects that are not time driven. (Unlike my screenwriting assignments.) So I have the luxury to "play" even if it is a bit like taking a fork to an elephant!

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Bill
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Old December 14th, 2002, 03:29 PM   #17
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I've never understood what makes Avid so great

Does Avid XPress DV have any additional functionality over Vegas Video, or is it just "more professional" by virtue of being more difficult to learn and more expensive? Can anyone in these forums justify the cost of the Avid software?
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Old December 14th, 2002, 03:35 PM   #18
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Any idea how well Avid works on a regular PC system, top-end but not designed for editing? Got the great media drive and fast Dell setup, just need to choose a capture card. Wondering how well it'd work. Since I do have some Avid experience and do have the temporary luxury of time and money, all I'm concerned about is performance.

Thanks for your analysis -- most insightful description of the Avid / Premiere difference.

Glenn
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Old December 14th, 2002, 11:44 PM   #19
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"Additional functionallity"

Interesting phrase. Not sure what it means. You mean more features? I am not that familiar with VV. I suppose you could look up the comparisons in the magazines. A lot of what Avid has, is important when you are editing feature films, and planning on offlining or transfering to the high end suites.

The actual workflow is different, how things work is different from VV and PRemiere.

Does VV output OMFI files? How about matchframe edl's for film?

Avid's version of REALTIME monitoring is closer and smoother than VV's, (Though one can argue about what REALTIME is nowadays. REalitme preview versus realtime output.)

I know DVLine sells a VV system with accelerators for VV that puts it up there with Premiere.

You don't use a "capture card" with Avid. Just a firewire card. If you have analogue footage, use a transcoder like the dac 2 or canopus advc100.


As far as how well it works on a top end system "Not designed for editing"... WHat does that mean? If you've got a great media drive and a fast Dell setup, and WInXP pro, then it's ready to go. Install it.

If you're happy with V V, then Great! Or go with FCP or PRemiere. It's a bit like choosing Mac or PC. Some people are more comfortable with a particular paradigm, because that's the one they started with. If the situation calls for a change of paradigm or work flow, then its always a bit of an adjustment... "Learning Curve."

Justify the cost of ANY software. It's worth what people are willing to pay for it. (Or they steal and hack it) It's more "professional" because it is part of a system that is still the standard for Broadcast and feature film making. (Most TV and Movies are cut on AVID) The interface is very similar. Skills translate readily across the AVID platforms.

But if you don't need it, or even want it, DON'T BUY IT.
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Old December 15th, 2002, 12:52 AM   #20
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I don't mean to be impertinent, but, I still have the question. Why buy Avid? What can you do with Avid that you can't do with VV?

What are OMFI files? Are matchframe edls just edls that account for 3:2 pulldown?

You don't need more than an OHCI card for VV. (Do you?)

If you aren't editing for film, why go with Avid XPress?
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Old December 15th, 2002, 05:07 AM   #21
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Thanks again. Just wasn't sure what the difference was (if any) between a regular ol' powerful new computer and a "workstation" -- which is what Avid refers to in their website's Xpress 3.5 hardware compatability page. But I got your clarification, Bill.

Best, Glenn
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Old December 15th, 2002, 05:15 AM   #22
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BTW - Folks may already know this, but I see Avid is offering a big discount ($500) off Xpress 3.5, to users of other major NLE's, thru and of this month. [Looks like all of them except VV, but maybe I missed it.] Makes it same price as FCP, I think.

-Glenn
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Old December 15th, 2002, 07:38 AM   #23
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I was trying to stay out of this part but...Avid can do some things so easily compared to Premiere that the price makes it worth buying. I guess what I'm trying to say is it has "features" that are not in Premiere or VV that make it worth learning. It's kinda hard for ME to explain, you need experience to know the difference and know why it's worth it.

Bill Angstrom I'm sure will explain this better but yes....it does have "Additional functionallity" that makes it easier to use once you learn the system. That's why I keep trying to learn it...I can do so many things so easily in Avid that I can't do in Premiere or VV that it's worth it to learn it.

I don't know or care about the film part...

It's 8:30 am and my coffee hasn't kicked in yet so I'm not thinking to clearly...but...let me try saying it this way...the more you know about editing...the more you NEED to know Avid.

Something like that...I dunno....I'll try again later...time for breakfast!
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Old December 15th, 2002, 08:48 AM   #24
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All NLE's are "the same" in as much as they are designed to assemble footage. iMovie can make a cut and a dissolve, and lay on some titles. So it's just as good as anything else right?

I can't really tell you what the difference is between features in VV and Avid, since I am unfamiliar with VV. I guess I could ask some questions though.

Does VV allow LAN sharing of media files so that more than one editor can work on a project at the same time? (This is a "professional" situation)

Can VV do digital cuts?

Does VV have audio scrub at high speeds?

Does VV have three-way professional color correction tools with vectorscope? (No, FCP doesn't have this.)

I read in Videomaker Magazine, that VV's "realtime preview" is about 12 frames per second. Kind of slow compared to Avids, which is... well 30 fps. (WARNING "realtime" has specific connotations to different manufacturers. Basically though, can you layer on a couple of transitions and see them immediately at speed without rendering. I am prety sure if you match up VV with an accelerator, it will do better than that. But of course, then you are turning it into a more expensive system.)

OMFI files are the way Avid stores it's media. These are the files that the high end professional Avid suites read.
Imagine shooting a highdef project. Offline it in Avid at home. Then take the omfi files with edl to the main suite and voila... you've saved big bucks.

Film Matchback keeps accurate track of film edge numbering of the negatives, warns you when you've duplicated footage, allows for accurate conforming of the negative by the cutter. This can be configured for 35mm 16mm and various perforation formats. Again, this is an application that those in film are more likely to find usefull. That's why its part of the "powerpack" option.

Does VV allow you to import your script text, and mark dialogue as you position playable clips frames next to the text? (really great storyboarding tool).

I need my coffee now. So I'll keep it short. A lot of the features are "high end" that you probably don't need. If you don't need them, don't buy them. That would be overkill.
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Old December 15th, 2002, 09:18 AM   #25
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I guess I still need more coffee...but....here's a example that made me want to use Avid. I wanted a picture in picture with a soft colored transparent border and wanted it expand on the screen and then move from one corner to another. With Avid...it is SO very simple...I couldn't do that with anything else that easily and quickly. Sure...you CAN do it in other programs...but not as quickly or easily.

The other thing was the vectorscope and color correction...all SO very easy to use and apply.

Bill Angstrom is more versed in the "technical" end of Avid but...I'm more interested in the "practical" uses in everyday editing.

If it does what you need when you need it and saves you time...well....that kinda explains my position. I just want to get it done with as little time involved without sacrificing ANY quality.

Again, the only problem is...you have to learn the Avid way and I'm just so fast in Premiere and know it so well....I haven't made the change...yet.

I can tell I'm going to need a lot more coffee!
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Old December 15th, 2002, 09:22 AM   #26
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At the very least having the ability to edit on an AVid is a skill set. Spend the $500, $600 to become certified and you can find a job as an editor almost anywhere in the country. You'll have a job, benefits and security. I don't know of any major post house, production company, corporation etc that uses Vegas Video. It is used by prosumer, industrial video type organizations. Mom and Pop operations if you will. This isn't meant to take anything away from them. It's just how the market is divided up.

The smaller organizations need more bang (features, effects) for their buck and for their clients. VV fills that need. Avid has a lock on the high end market and VV has a hard time cracking in to it. Why swim upstream. Fill the need in the marketplace and sell lots more units.

Avid has the lions share of the high end market. Why? They were their first. They saw the need and they filled it. Final Cut Pro is challenging them on some fronts but is not supplanting Avid in the big studios. Why? Avids ability to handle media across different platforms.

Open Media Framework (OMF) allows Avid media files to move seamlessly across networks to high end workstations for use by colorists, and effects people. The media can be stored on servers and accessed by different workstations as needed. It will generate a list (EDL) to be used to cut the film or be imported into high end linear editors.

The advantage to the post houses and corporate users is that they can cut a project (offline) on DV Xpress and move seamlessly to online it in another room. You can have a handful of DV Xpress' and one or two Symphonies and your set.

Jeff
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Old December 15th, 2002, 07:28 PM   #27
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Another difference between Avid and VV: Avid XPress DV won't run on Windows 2000?
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Old December 15th, 2002, 09:26 PM   #28
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Yes, it requires XP or OS X to the best of my knowledge.

Jeff
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Old December 16th, 2002, 10:31 AM   #29
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Right Avid XpressDV 3.53 runs on XPpro. Version 3.0 runs on Win2k. You can still get 3.0 and many people are happy with it. (It does not have the new color correction suite however)
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Old December 17th, 2002, 08:50 AM   #30
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And, I suspect, as NLE's keep advancing, more of them will be limited to the newer operating systems. Your needs as an editor will determine whether you need to move with them. If what you currently are using is meeting your needs, then I guess you can just keep using it!
One other thing I will say about Avid (and FCP) that goes along with what Jeff D. said, is that if you are going to school for editing, these are the 2 systems that you will learn. If you say VV to them, they will answer "Huh?". That's not a put down, that's just where the business is. I have students that have taken my high school video class and have moved on to college or film and TV schools and those are the systems they are learning. The jobs are in Avid, and to a slightly lesser degree FCP. That's why I recently spent my own money to buy a Mac so that my students will have access to FCP. And why I am busy learning both XPress DV and FCP myself:)
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