PPRO 2 HD to HD and HD to SD at DVinfo.net

Max Todorov · May 23rd, 2007, 10:19 AM

It is known now based on many old thread that PPRO 2.0 has an issue with down convert (IT look HORRIBLE, way worse than regular SD project) to SD based on these threads:

Here are the threads on subject...
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=70792
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89188
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=88362
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89040
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=88456
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=85038
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=87541
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=87258

So here is my question:

What is the best way to get the HD video file out of Premier Pro 2 timeline.

I do not have any other software other than Premier Pro 2 and want to get the best possible file out of Premier in HD so that I can try other apps (Virtual Dub. etc) to down convert it to SD.

I want to shoot and edit in HD so that I can create both HD and SD video.

Any suggestions for export... I do not see any options in Adobe Media Encoder that will allow for uncompressed HD out of premier. I did not see any options in Export > movie that were in HD...

AM I blind?

I was thinking of using the QuickTime Pro for further work and it does not accept MPEG2.

Ivan Barbarich · May 23rd, 2007, 11:10 PM

Check my videos

http://www.esnips.com/web/Premiere-Pro-2-Video-Tutes

Gareth Watkins · May 24th, 2007, 01:55 AM

Hi there

You are right PPro 2.0 doesn't handle downconvertion at all well...The media encoder will only let you do the various Mpeg settings, QT, WMV or FLV...

I don't know if this is the right way but it works and I'lm happy with the output files...
So you want to output to HD.avi to be able to downsize in Virtual dub as it can't handle Mpeg files.

You Export> Movie, then in the settings chose Microsoft .avi. On the left of the window that opens you have a Video option which you need to set to 1440x1080, Compression: None. Aspect Ratio : HD anamorphic 1080.
This will give you a file you can import into Vdub and downsize.

The quality is not bad at all...At least far better than the PPro equivalent. Of course you'll need to bring it back into Premiere to interpret the footage as Vdub puts it out squashed...

cheers
Gareth

Max Todorov · May 24th, 2007, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan Barbarich

Check my videos

http://www.esnips.com/web/Premiere-Pro-2-Video-Tutes

wow....

your export to .mov looked great......

I will try tonight.....

One question:

You exported a m2t file... with not much editing....

Do you thing the results would be the same if you have many cuts?

Also do you think the result would be the same if I capture with Premier?

Ervin Farkas · May 24th, 2007, 11:20 AM

It seems like you're editing HDV natively (i. e. not using Cineform or another intermediary format).

Cuts do not affect the quality of your video. There will be a re-encoding process but the loss is neglijable. There will be losses, however, if you apply effects, corrections, transitions, but in my opinion your final product will still be higher quality compared to shooting SD.

It doesn't matter what you're using for capture as long as the job is done without error (no dropped frames) - capturing is nothing more than a file transfer.

Brad Tyrrell · May 24th, 2007, 03:31 PM

Frameserve it. I like Debugmode (free) but there are others.

Ivan Barbarich · May 24th, 2007, 09:13 PM

Hi Max,

I'm glad the videos helped.

Like Ervin said, it doesnt matter how many cuts there are. I do many cuts, because I capture straight through to save the heads a bit, so I get a fair bit of extra footage (just in case). I cut all the rubbish out, edit in more detail (transitions titles music etc ) and then export .m2t to bring into a SD project for DVD.

The cuts are only references to a particular time in the footage (Non distructive) So when it exports or renders, its only exporting the bits you outlined in your timeline.

Ivan.

Ervin Farkas · May 25th, 2007, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan Barbarich

The cuts are only references to a particular time in the footage (Non distructive). So when it exports or renders, its only exporting the bits you outlined in your timeline.

It makes a difference where the cut is. HDV has a group of pictures of 15 frames - frame one is an I-frame (contains all the data), the next 14 frames are based on the first frame and only record changes compared to that first frame... that's the nature of mpeg2 compression. Now, if you cut at GOP level, there will be no re-encoding, but if you cut anywhere else, the whole segment will be re-encoded because the I-frames are no longer the original I-frames. Every time you re-encode (maybe I should say re-compress), you loose a little quality.

Some programs (MPEG Streamclip for example) can find these keyframes and do the cut right there, avoiding re-compressing the segment.

I wonder if PremPro can do the same... has anyone looked into this issue?

Greg Boston · June 17th, 2007, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ervin Farkas

Now, if you cut at GOP level, there will be no re-encoding, but if you cut anywhere else, the whole segment will be re-encoded because the I-frames are no longer the original I-frames. Every time you re-encode (maybe I should say re-compress), you loose a little quality.

Some programs (MPEG Streamclip for example) can find these keyframes and do the cut right there, avoiding re-compressing the segment.

For simple cuts, there's no need for the software to re-compress and therefore, no quality loss. The software simply has to re-conform the GOP structure.

-gb-

Stephan Stryhanyn · June 23rd, 2007, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Boston

For simple cuts, there's no need for the software to re-compress and therefore, no quality loss. The software simply has to re-conform the GOP structure.

Are you really sure about that? I thought one needed Mainconcept's MPEG Pro HD plug-in for that. On their website, the features page states: "Native MPEG editing with smart rendering: Edit MPEG material without unnecessary rendering - only changed frames are rendered."

Whereas, for instance, exporting a whole sequence (without MPEG Pro HD) through AME's "HDV 1080i 25" (or 30) preset, that yields a .m2t output file, will take so much time (and CPU power) that it can only mean a full re-render / recompress of the sequence.

Steve Montoto · July 9th, 2007, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan Barbarich

Check my videos

http://www.esnips.com/web/Premiere-Pro-2-Video-Tutes

Ivan,

Just watched your videos, and thank you for taking the time to put them up. I had a couple questions though. When I scale my hd down to my project size I have to use 45% to get it to the correct size. Plus I notice you didnt render when you burned your dvd, and I read somewhere that a little sharpening filter helps during this process, have you used any?

May 23rd, 2007, 10:19 AM	#1
Max Todorov Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Yorba Linda, CA Posts: 42	PPRO 2 HD to HD and HD to SD It is known now based on many old thread that PPRO 2.0 has an issue with down convert (IT look HORRIBLE, way worse than regular SD project) to SD based on these threads: Here are the threads on subject... http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=70792 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89188 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=88362 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89040 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=88456 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=85038 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=87541 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=87258 So here is my question: What is the best way to get the HD video file out of Premier Pro 2 timeline. I do not have any other software other than Premier Pro 2 and want to get the best possible file out of Premier in HD so that I can try other apps (Virtual Dub. etc) to down convert it to SD. I want to shoot and edit in HD so that I can create both HD and SD video. Any suggestions for export... I do not see any options in Adobe Media Encoder that will allow for uncompressed HD out of premier. I did not see any options in Export > movie that were in HD... AM I blind? I was thinking of using the QuickTime Pro for further work and it does not accept MPEG2. Last edited by Max Todorov; May 23rd, 2007 at 10:20 AM. Reason: spelling

May 24th, 2007, 11:20 AM	#5
Ervin Farkas Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Atlanta/USA Posts: 2,515	Yes & yes It seems like you're editing HDV natively (i. e. not using Cineform or another intermediary format). Cuts do not affect the quality of your video. There will be a re-encoding process but the loss is neglijable. There will be losses, however, if you apply effects, corrections, transitions, but in my opinion your final product will still be higher quality compared to shooting SD. It doesn't matter what you're using for capture as long as the job is done without error (no dropped frames) - capturing is nothing more than a file transfer. __________________ Ervin Farkas www.AtlantaLegalVideo.com

May 23rd, 2007, 11:10 PM	#2
Ivan Barbarich Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 47	Check my videos http://www.esnips.com/web/Premiere-Pro-2-Video-Tutes

May 24th, 2007, 01:55 AM	#3
Gareth Watkins Major Player Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: France Posts: 578	Hi there You are right PPro 2.0 doesn't handle downconvertion at all well...The media encoder will only let you do the various Mpeg settings, QT, WMV or FLV... I don't know if this is the right way but it works and I'lm happy with the output files... So you want to output to HD.avi to be able to downsize in Virtual dub as it can't handle Mpeg files. You Export> Movie, then in the settings chose Microsoft .avi. On the left of the window that opens you have a Video option which you need to set to 1440x1080, Compression: None. Aspect Ratio : HD anamorphic 1080. This will give you a file you can import into Vdub and downsize. The quality is not bad at all...At least far better than the PPro equivalent. Of course you'll need to bring it back into Premiere to interpret the footage as Vdub puts it out squashed... cheers Gareth

May 24th, 2007, 03:31 PM	#6
Brad Tyrrell Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Morristown, New Jersey Posts: 249	Frameserve it. I like Debugmode (free) but there are others.

May 24th, 2007, 09:13 PM	#7
Ivan Barbarich Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 47	Hi Max, I'm glad the videos helped. Like Ervin said, it doesnt matter how many cuts there are. I do many cuts, because I capture straight through to save the heads a bit, so I get a fair bit of extra footage (just in case). I cut all the rubbish out, edit in more detail (transitions titles music etc ) and then export .m2t to bring into a SD project for DVD. The cuts are only references to a particular time in the footage (Non distructive) So when it exports or renders, its only exporting the bits you outlined in your timeline. Ivan.