Cineform, Matrox, or both at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Cross-Platform Post Production Solutions > Adobe Creative Suite

Adobe Creative Suite
All about the world of Adobe Premiere and its associated plug-ins.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 19th, 2007, 01:59 PM   #1
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minneapolis Minnesota
Posts: 347
Cineform, Matrox, or both

Editing HDV what is the best way to go with the Adobe CS3 Production Studio; Use Cineform with it, or the Matrox RT.X2? Which gives the best quality, shortest rendering times, etc.

Can you use both together ? Would that be a good idea or not?

I currently have the old PPro1.5 suite and use the cineform codec with it. This seems to work well on short projects, but anything over 20-30 minutes (depending on how much color corr,. effects, etc.) seems to cause PPro or Encore to crash during the lengthly 12+ hours encoding for DVD output. Crash might not be the correct term, I just get a "error exporting movie/unknown error" message. Thanks - PK

Last edited by Paul Kepen; July 19th, 2007 at 02:45 PM.
Paul Kepen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 29th, 2007, 02:29 PM   #2
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minneapolis Minnesota
Posts: 347
No Responses?

I guess my question must seem dumb, but I would like to know the pro/con of each.
I have PPro1.5.1 and cineform. This works for short projects but the rendering out always freezes/crashes on any project longer then about 30 minutes or so. I don't know if this is/was a common issue with PPro1.5.1 and if it is improved with the latter versions, or if going the Matrox route would solve the problem.

Also, capturing with cineform - the Canon HV20 24p pulldown is recognized. On the matrox site the mention Canon 24F - used by the big canon's, but no mention of the 24P used by the HV-20.

Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks -PK
Paul Kepen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 30th, 2007, 01:25 AM   #3
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 151
I have been using Premiere since 6.5 for DV and using Cineform with Premiere Pro (now CS3) to edit hdv successfully, and I have never had any serious insurmountable problems. I am not even quite sure what one would need Matrox for, although I am sure there are some people's workflows that benefit from it, based on how popular it is.
Jim Gunn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 30th, 2007, 03:35 AM   #4
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minneapolis Minnesota
Posts: 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Gunn View Post
I have been using Premiere since 6.5 for DV and using Cineform with Premiere Pro (now CS3) to edit hdv successfully, and I have never had any serious insurmountable problems. I am not even quite sure what one would need Matrox for, although I am sure there are some people's workflows that benefit from it, based on how popular it is.
Thanks Jim for the reply. It is greatly appreciated because I have to decide on the Cineform upgrade to the new version (5?) by tomorrow to get the discount price (Yes it is technically Tuesday, but I will be on a flight out of the country Tue AM). I use Aspect with Vegas 6 and PPro 1.5.1. The only problem with Aspect and PPro has been that I can't render anything longer then about 35 minutes or so. Longer projects just never complete the rendering step. I don't have this problem with Vegas. Did you do HDV with ver 1.5, or were you up to PPro 2 by that time? Maybe with the newer Adobe versions this is not a problem anymore, or its soome quirk with my system. Thanks again - Take Care - PK
Paul Kepen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 30th, 2007, 03:52 PM   #5
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Kepen View Post
Did you do HDV with ver 1.5, or were you up to PPro 2 by that time? Maybe with the newer Adobe versions this is not a problem anymore, or its soome quirk with my system. Thanks again - Take Care - PK
I used to use P Pro 1.5.1 with Aspect HD 4 to edit hdv and it worked for me even with long (120 min.) videos. The newer version Aspect HD 5 with CS 3 plays a little smoother from the timeline though so I am happy with the upgrade. If your renders are stopping or giving an error that is most likely an issue with your hardware or software or installation of the apps.
Jim Gunn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 31st, 2007, 08:21 AM   #6
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canton, Ohio
Posts: 1,770
Make sure you have applied the adobe update for the media encoder for Premiere Pro 1.5. There was an issue where it would stop rendering mpg files part way through it and spit out an error that said something about "could not return frame" or a similar message. The patch for the media encoder of premiere fixed this. Hope this helps with that issue.

Peace.
Marty Hudzik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 1st, 2007, 09:14 AM   #7
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minneapolis Minnesota
Posts: 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Hudzik View Post
Make sure you have applied the adobe update for the media encoder for Premiere Pro 1.5. There was an issue where it would stop rendering mpg files part way through it and spit out an error that said something about "could not return frame" or a similar message. The patch for the media encoder of premiere fixed this. Hope this helps with that issue.

Peace.
Thanks Marty. I believe you are refering to the Adobe 1.5.1 upgrade, which
I have- sorry if I did not mention that. If there is another, newer upgrade, I am unaware of that. Thanks Again -PK
Paul Kepen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 1st, 2007, 09:30 AM   #8
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canton, Ohio
Posts: 1,770
There is definitely a different update for this exact problem that is not addressed in the 1.5.1 update.

http://www.mainconcept.com/adobemedia/downloads.html


Here is blurb from that page:

"Adobe Media Encoder MPEG Update to version 1.1
This installer updates the Adobe Media Encoder to include the latest versions of the MainConcept MPEG encoding files. This update is recommended for any user experiencing the following issues: “Adobe Premiere Pro failed to return a video frame. Canceling the operation.” Or an “Out of memory” error when using the Premiere Pro Export to DVD feature. This version includes an enhancement which fixes this MPEG encoding failure and error."

Hope this helps.

Marty
Marty Hudzik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 1st, 2007, 10:14 AM   #9
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minneapolis Minnesota
Posts: 347
Thank You Very much Marty. I did not see that one. I don't know the date of it from the Adobe site that your link points to, but I will definitely be sure to add that one if I don't alread have it. I am traveling and in a hotel room with my laptop right know, so I won't be able to check it out until this weekend, but again, Thanks for the help. Have a Great Day - Paul Kepen
Paul Kepen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 2nd, 2007, 10:19 PM   #10
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Auburn Hills, USA
Posts: 217
Hi guys. I am a RTX2 user and this is just an example of the time it takes for rendering. The first thing to understand when using one of the Matrox products and its working well, is that most things you have to render with Premiere native are non existent. For example, dropping clips on timelines from simply source or bins, transitions, etc. The next thing is that when you do actually have to render, its very quick. But this is highly dependent on your system and how long it takes. For example, I can export cuts only HDV down to Mpeg I-frame SD with my current system in much less than realtime. Also, with a two pass Mpeg2 that is ready to drop into Encore, it takes approximately 1.5 times realtime. This is with pretty much transitions and cuts only.

I don't have to ever render these hdv clips when working with them unless I have to add effects. With my current gpu and HDV, some require rendering for full frame playback, and some do not. However, if once again, I do have to render an effect, it is extremely fast, even with my lowly 7600GS gpu.

I am running a Q6600 which speeds the HDV considerably. But with regular DV, there was almost nothing I ever had to render with the exception of the more complex effects. And this was with me normally working with 2-4 layers of video, with effects. The Matrox cards really are huge timesavers as long as your system is up to snuff.

Another example, I did some analog Mpeg I-frame captures today of 45 minutes a piece. Very simple captures.. The only thing I had to do was trim the heads and tails of each clip, drop it onto the timeline, hit the space bar, add cross dissolves to the head and tail of the clips, I exported to movie(I frame once again since Encore accepts it) each clip on its own individual timeline, and am transcoding in Encore now. For each 45 minute raw clip, it only took 5 minutes a piece When I began this post, Encore had just begun to transcode, and approx ten minutes later, it looks to be 65-70% done. I never had to render anything, and it all is working smoothly. The capture aside, I would say per dvd it will probably take me 1/2 to 45 minutes total to complete, with no rendering at all.

Once again, this is with a Quad. With my previous Pentium D 945, it was not nearly as fast with the downconverts from HDV, but the SD, was still pretty quick. But to answer the questions of the rendering, you really don't do much at all, depending on the complexity of your project. Besides, almost everything is very accelerated with the hardware, so that helps alot..

But that is just my experience with their cards. I simply love them and cant imagine using Premiere native... The X2 has spoiled me that much.. As a matter of fact, I first tried using CS3 in native, capturing and editing, and it just gave me a headache with how many times I either had to render simple things or the framerate would not be fulltime. This once again was performed with my Pentium D.. I haven't tried native with the Quad, but I figure I really don't need to, so why bother...
D
Damon Gaskin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 3rd, 2007, 12:05 PM   #11
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minneapolis Minnesota
Posts: 347
Thanks Everyone

Thanks Jim, Marty, and Damon for your very informative and helpful responses. It is summer up here in Minnesota, and other then the terrible Bridge incident, its been a very nice warm but not humid summer. I am going to enjoy what is left of summer, hopefully get my last 2 current projects (that are almost complete) finished, and then this fall I plan to do the dreaded reformat and reinstall software to hopefully speed things up. I also did purchase the cineform upgrade because I use that with Vegas as well as PPro, and that will be installed at that time. I have not decided if I will just upgrade to CS3 or go with the Matrox board as well. Thanks again, and enjoy the rest of summer - PK
Paul Kepen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2007, 02:36 PM   #12
Major Player
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Brno Czech Republic
Posts: 453
Hello Paul, Matrox RTX2 is great for quick-n-dirty editing as it's REALLY powerful, but you're to get into problems if you want to use matrox-captured footage in apps other than Premiere. I tend to use Matrox for event videography and Cineform for planned stuff like music videos, movies and such. Nice thing with Cineform is that it upconverts color space to 4:2:2 (HDV is 4:2:0, DV is 4:1:1), which gives you more color latitude for postproduction and the quality doesn't suffer as much when doing multiple passes of post.

I would suggest Matrox's RTX2 support forum to see how many people (including me with Matrox-certified turnkey workstation, mind you...) have problems - audio dropouts, playhead stopping extra 5-7 frames AFTER you stop playback, issues with Matrox-captured files outside Premiere... On the other hand, you get HW-based previews on your PC monitor while capturing (with sound), which sole Premiere CS3 cannot do and all the effect are really realtime, no matter how many you throw at RTX2.

So it all boils down to what do you intend to edit.

Hope this helps,

Jiri
Jiri Fiala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4th, 2007, 05:14 PM   #13
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minneapolis Minnesota
Posts: 347
Thanks Jiri

Hi Jiri. Nice to hear from you and Thank You very much for your extremely informative post. It great to hear from someone with "hands on" experience with both the Matrox X2 and Cineform. I was unaware of the problems using the footage outside of Premiere. Do you have these problems on anything outside of Premiere - like After Effects? Or are you referencing anything outside of the Adobe Production suite?
Thanks again for your help - PK
Paul Kepen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5th, 2007, 05:05 PM   #14
Major Player
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Brno Czech Republic
Posts: 453
RTX2-captured AVI files are largely uncompatible with anything outside Premiere. You should be fine if you have Adobe production suite with Dynamic link. I have just Premiere and After Effects (many reviews tend to overlook the fact that you get Dynamic Link ONLY with the whole expensive Production Suite). Sole After Effects 7 with Matrox Tools V2 and Premiere Pro 2 have problems importing Matrox AVIs - I get regular lockups on playback in AFX and you might be able only to play first 1:50 or so minutes of any clip. I am not alone with this problem, please DO visit Matrox RTX2 forum before you buy it.

I have yet to try new Matrox Tools V3 with new Premiere CS3 (I will keep you posted as soon as I have it installed), which may or may not fix many of these issues. Problem is that it takes forever for Matrix to even acknowledge any issue, not to mention fix it.

This is why I suggest RTX2 for quick (REALLY quick and relatively trouble-free) and dirty editing inside Premiere and buying Cineform for anything else. RTX2 is not that expensive because you get full Premiere included and some of its features (like full HDV preview on PC or video monitor while both editing and capturing, which even Final Cut Pro cannot do) are well worth the price.

Please do ask if you have any other questions :o)
Jiri Fiala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 5th, 2007, 05:08 PM   #15
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Beavercreek, OH
Posts: 93
Hi

I am also a Matrox RTX2 user and this is my third Matrox product. I love it and have not had any real issues at all. Currently using PP2 on a midlevel dual core system. I import in matrox HDV, edit in HDV, output to whichever mpg I need for either HD Blu-ray or SD DVD. Workflow is great and video straight from camcorder looks just like video straight from the editing bay onto a new 46 inch Samsung LCD HD (1080) model 4665F TV. I and my clients all go wow.

I will be putting CS3 onto the system as soon as I finish the next wedding.

I believe you will find enough export options in PP3 to match whatever system you wish to take your final video to use in. Since I only have two computers for editing (RTX2 system and a RTX100 system) that has never been a concern.

Bill in Ohio
Bill Ritter is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Cross-Platform Post Production Solutions > Adobe Creative Suite

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:43 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network