Aja Io hd and xl-h1 workfow at DVinfo.net

Andrea Beck · October 2nd, 2008, 10:36 AM

Hi. I am about to record a concert with 4 cameras. One of them is a XL-H1 and we are planning to capture the footage with aja io hd. The cameras will shoot at 24F. When we connect aja io hd to the XL-H1, aja doesn't read 23.98 nor 24p. It reads 29.97i - is that correct? What's the best workflow to capture the footage and deliver it in true 24p?
Thanks a lot.

Andrea Beck · October 2nd, 2008, 12:26 PM

That's the answer I got from AJA.
Andrea:

The XLH-1 will always output 29.97 via the HD-SDI output.
The IOHD is auto detecting the correct format. There is now way around this if you capture with the IOHD. You will have to use 29.97
The only way to output 24 frame out of that camera is via Firewire.

Regards,
Gerald

Gerald Kaczorowski
AJA Video Technical Support

Robert Sanders · October 2nd, 2008, 03:57 PM

I used Cinema Tools to perform an inverse telecine to get it back to 24p. You can also use Compressor to perform batches (but Compressor might clip whites above 100IRE).

Andrea Beck · October 2nd, 2008, 04:03 PM

Thanks for the info, Robert!

Luke Garza · November 18th, 2009, 03:31 AM

So im kinda curious about what aja said cause on convergent design website they say or show video of them capturing 24f with their xdr. Reading little more it says it had to apply 3:2 pulldown off the sdi feed which was in a 60i wrapper. I might have read it wrong or missunderstood it but it seems correct. So saying the h1 cant do 24f out the sdi seems wrong but im a rookie so who knows.

Jon Thorn · November 18th, 2009, 05:17 PM

Luke G. - Just to clarify, the Canon XH-G1s supports data in the HD-SDI stream that allows AJA to extract the 24 frames from within the 1080i 29.97 (60i) video via our AJA Io HD and KONA products. This was the first camera to provide this. The earlier Canon XL-H1 did not provide this data in the HD-SDI stream and only output 1080i 29.97 as noted earlier in the thread.

The function to support the 24 frames within the 60i video stream will be supported on Ki Pro soon as well.

Thanks,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California

Luke Garza · November 18th, 2009, 10:42 PM

Thanks alot for clarifying that up for me. That makes perfect sense to me know. So if you dont mind can i ask you one more thing. Do you know what the component out of the g1 and a1 is when captured live. Is it 24f if that is what it is set too and is in a 60i stream that your producst like ki pro can apply 3:2 pulldown and capture 24p into pro res so way better quality then hdv. I have xh a1 so would prefere to by a ki pro and just use what i have then have to buy g1 or newer h1 to get sdi if i can do same thing into ki pro with component.

Jon Thorn · November 19th, 2009, 05:13 PM

Luke G. - Component video and SDI video differ in that component video does not provide additional ancillary data like flagged frame information. The component video output - whether shot as 24F or not - will be interpreted as 1080i 29.97.

Hope this is helpful,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California

Dave Stern · November 19th, 2009, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke Garza

Thanks alot for clarifying that up for me. That makes perfect sense to me know. So if you dont mind can i ask you one more thing. Do you know what the component out of the g1 and a1 is when captured live. Is it 24f if that is what it is set too and is in a 60i stream that your producst like ki pro can apply 3:2 pulldown and capture 24p into pro res so way better quality then hdv. I have xh a1 so would prefere to by a ki pro and just use what i have then have to buy g1 or newer h1 to get sdi if i can do same thing into ki pro with component.

Luke - same problem, re the xh a1. question for you - the component output includes the OSD from the A1 and I find no way to turn it off in the component out but still have it on the LCD (for example). Which means that any capture done with the a1 using component out to the kipro must be shot with no OSD, at least as far as I can tell.

Have you found any way around this?

A new hxg1 is over $6,000 with resale of the A1 somewhere around $2k - $2.5k, meaning it's a $4k upgrade to get SDI in that camera, but I'm thinking the only practical way to have the OSD and record better than HDV would be an upgrade (and still have the HDV tape backup, which I like, and I also like the canons).

Any thoughts?

Luke Garza · December 3rd, 2009, 04:13 AM

Hey Jon thanks for reply on info about g1 with sdi and a1 with component and how they differ but i have read both manuals and according to canon manual on page 40 it says.

The video signal will be output from hdv/dv terminal in 24 fps progressive mode. The signal output from the HD/SD SDI terminal (xh g1) and the COMPONENT OUT terminal will be down-converted to 60i using the 2:3 pulldown method.

So im guessing this is how your kona and io hd products remove pulldown from 60i wrapper from sdi. Well if the component is throwing out exact same signal as stated can then not your products achieve the same thing. Sorry to keep asking but im sure im not only a1 owner considering kipro and would find this info useful.

Thanks

Jon Thorn · December 3rd, 2009, 07:57 AM

Luke G. - Again, the analog component video offers no ancillary data for us which is what we use to determine the cadence; analog component simply does not work the same as using SDI for this task.

Regards,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California

Mark Job · April 28th, 2010, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Thorn

Luke G. - Just to clarify, the Canon XH-G1s supports data in the HD-SDI stream that allows AJA to extract the 24 frames from within the 1080i 29.97 (60i) video via our AJA Io HD and KONA products. This was the first camera to provide this. The earlier Canon XL-H1 did not provide this data in the HD-SDI stream and only output 1080i 29.97 as noted earlier in the thread.

The function to support the 24 frames within the 60i video stream will be supported on Ki Pro soon as well.

Thanks,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California

...Hi Jon:
I use the Canon XL H1 @ 24 F setting with my Convergent Design Flash XDR and I can confirm the HD-SDI output from this camera does have the necessary ancillary data in the signal (i.e. the 24 F flag). The XL H1's output is all 59.94i Hz actually, and the XDR's 3:2 pull down could not work unless it can read the 24 F from the HD-SDI stream from the camera. Also, the 3:2 pull down removal reads as 23.98 fps. BTW, the XDR works perfectly giving you dual simultaneous 24p corrected output as it's performing 3:2 pull down removal from the 59.94i camera stream. If someone has an XDR kicking around, then you can use it as a realtime 24p converter and feed the dual HD-SDI outputs into the ioHD to record true 24p from the converted HD-SDI stream from the Canon XL H1.

EDIT: I am not implying you *must plug two HD-SDI streams out of the Flash XDR to obtain a 24p corrected video signal - only that the XDR can supply two HD-SDI outputs simultaneously. (It has two of these outputs)

Jon Thorn · April 30th, 2010, 10:57 AM

Mark J. - AJA worked directly with Canon to support 24 frame removal from the Canon XH-G1s camera when using the AJA Io HD; that particular Canon camera provides the flagged frame data in the SDI needed for proper extraction of frames from the 29.97 (59.94Hz) signal.

I believe that the reason the XDR allows you to remove the 24 frames from your Canon XL-H1 is probably made possible by the method that Convergent Design uses to extract frames, stated in a post by Dan Keaton on the Convergent Design forum:
"We can detect duplicate frames and remove them. We do not rely on "Flagged" frames, we actually check if the frames are duplicates and remove them if Pulldown Removal is checked in the menu."

So this means that Convergent Design utilizes a different method to perform frame removal and extraction. AJA has always used the flagged frame method as we feel this is the most reliable method to obtain the correct frames, A/V sync, etc.

I hope this helps clarify the difference in the methods use for frame extraction.

Regards,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.

Mark Job · April 30th, 2010, 11:24 AM

John T. - Thank you for the clarification on the ioHD boxes' method of detecting 24 F. I stand corrected. However, both methods seem to work well for detecting Canon 24 F from Canon cameras. I was also suggesting if the gentleman had the Flash XDR device (For some reason I thought he may possess one) (??) he could use it to detect Canon 24F out of 59.94i camera output, then use either one of the two HD-SDI outputs from the Flash XDR and plug this into your company's ioHD device because by this point the Flash XDR has now provided in realtime a *Corrected 24p* from Canon's 24 F via its 3:2 pull down removal capability. The ioHD is a wonderful box for adding realtime capture to final cut pro.

October 2nd, 2008, 10:36 AM	#1
Andrea Beck Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Porto Alegre - Brazil Posts: 40	Aja Io hd and xl-h1 workfow Hi. I am about to record a concert with 4 cameras. One of them is a XL-H1 and we are planning to capture the footage with aja io hd. The cameras will shoot at 24F. When we connect aja io hd to the XL-H1, aja doesn't read 23.98 nor 24p. It reads 29.97i - is that correct? What's the best workflow to capture the footage and deliver it in true 24p? Thanks a lot. __________________ Andrea Beck vfx compositor www.farofafilmes.com

October 2nd, 2008, 12:26 PM	#2
Andrea Beck Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Porto Alegre - Brazil Posts: 40	That's the answer I got from AJA. Andrea: The XLH-1 will always output 29.97 via the HD-SDI output. The IOHD is auto detecting the correct format. There is now way around this if you capture with the IOHD. You will have to use 29.97 The only way to output 24 frame out of that camera is via Firewire. Regards, Gerald Gerald Kaczorowski AJA Video Technical Support __________________ Andrea Beck vfx compositor www.farofafilmes.com

October 2nd, 2008, 03:57 PM	#3
Robert Sanders Starway Pictures Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Studio City Posts: 581	I used Cinema Tools to perform an inverse telecine to get it back to 24p. You can also use Compressor to perform batches (but Compressor might clip whites above 100IRE). __________________ http://www.starwaypictures.com http://starwaypictures.blogspot.com/

October 2nd, 2008, 04:03 PM	#4
Andrea Beck Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Porto Alegre - Brazil Posts: 40	Thanks for the info, Robert! __________________ Andrea Beck vfx compositor www.farofafilmes.com

November 18th, 2009, 05:17 PM	#6
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	Clarification Luke G. - Just to clarify, the Canon XH-G1s supports data in the HD-SDI stream that allows AJA to extract the 24 frames from within the 1080i 29.97 (60i) video via our AJA Io HD and KONA products. This was the first camera to provide this. The earlier Canon XL-H1 did not provide this data in the HD-SDI stream and only output 1080i 29.97 as noted earlier in the thread. The function to support the 24 frames within the 60i video stream will be supported on Ki Pro soon as well. Thanks, Jon Thorn Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc. California

November 18th, 2009, 03:31 AM	#5
Luke Garza Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 27	So im kinda curious about what aja said cause on convergent design website they say or show video of them capturing 24f with their xdr. Reading little more it says it had to apply 3:2 pulldown off the sdi feed which was in a 60i wrapper. I might have read it wrong or missunderstood it but it seems correct. So saying the h1 cant do 24f out the sdi seems wrong but im a rookie so who knows.

November 18th, 2009, 10:42 PM	#7
Luke Garza Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 27	Thanks alot for clarifying that up for me. That makes perfect sense to me know. So if you dont mind can i ask you one more thing. Do you know what the component out of the g1 and a1 is when captured live. Is it 24f if that is what it is set too and is in a 60i stream that your producst like ki pro can apply 3:2 pulldown and capture 24p into pro res so way better quality then hdv. I have xh a1 so would prefere to by a ki pro and just use what i have then have to buy g1 or newer h1 to get sdi if i can do same thing into ki pro with component.

November 19th, 2009, 05:13 PM	#8
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	Component video and SDI video differ in terms of data Luke G. - Component video and SDI video differ in that component video does not provide additional ancillary data like flagged frame information. The component video output - whether shot as 24F or not - will be interpreted as 1080i 29.97. Hope this is helpful, Jon Thorn Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc. California

December 3rd, 2009, 04:13 AM	#10
Luke Garza Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 27	Hey Jon thanks for reply on info about g1 with sdi and a1 with component and how they differ but i have read both manuals and according to canon manual on page 40 it says. The video signal will be output from hdv/dv terminal in 24 fps progressive mode. The signal output from the HD/SD SDI terminal (xh g1) and the COMPONENT OUT terminal will be down-converted to 60i using the 2:3 pulldown method. So im guessing this is how your kona and io hd products remove pulldown from 60i wrapper from sdi. Well if the component is throwing out exact same signal as stated can then not your products achieve the same thing. Sorry to keep asking but im sure im not only a1 owner considering kipro and would find this info useful. Thanks Last edited by Luke Garza; December 3rd, 2009 at 04:14 AM. Reason: was Jon not Joe ment to replay too

December 3rd, 2009, 07:57 AM	#11
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	Luke G. - Again, the analog component video offers no ancillary data for us which is what we use to determine the cadence; analog component simply does not work the same as using SDI for this task. Regards, Jon Thorn Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc. California

April 30th, 2010, 10:57 AM	#13
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	Canon 24F extraction via SDI Mark J. - AJA worked directly with Canon to support 24 frame removal from the Canon XH-G1s camera when using the AJA Io HD; that particular Canon camera provides the flagged frame data in the SDI needed for proper extraction of frames from the 29.97 (59.94Hz) signal. I believe that the reason the XDR allows you to remove the 24 frames from your Canon XL-H1 is probably made possible by the method that Convergent Design uses to extract frames, stated in a post by Dan Keaton on the Convergent Design forum: "We can detect duplicate frames and remove them. We do not rely on "Flagged" frames, we actually check if the frames are duplicates and remove them if Pulldown Removal is checked in the menu." So this means that Convergent Design utilizes a different method to perform frame removal and extraction. AJA has always used the flagged frame method as we feel this is the most reliable method to obtain the correct frames, A/V sync, etc. I hope this helps clarify the difference in the methods use for frame extraction. Regards, Jon Thorn Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc.

April 30th, 2010, 11:24 AM	#14
Mark Job Trustee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,138	To Read Flag or to Read Duplicate Frames ? John T. - Thank you for the clarification on the ioHD boxes' method of detecting 24 F. I stand corrected. However, both methods seem to work well for detecting Canon 24 F from Canon cameras. I was also suggesting if the gentleman had the Flash XDR device (For some reason I thought he may possess one) (??) he could use it to detect Canon 24F out of 59.94i camera output, then use either one of the two HD-SDI outputs from the Flash XDR and plug this into your company's ioHD device because by this point the Flash XDR has now provided in realtime a Corrected 24p from Canon's 24 F via its 3:2 pull down removal capability. The ioHD is a wonderful box for adding realtime capture to final cut pro.