AJA Ki Pro

Matt Gottshalk · July 15th, 2009, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

Jon,

Thanks for your reply. While I am certain you are privy to better numbers than me, I am curious as to whether your numbers show you there are more FCP users out there or more Avid users. I wonder if the unit recorded to JPEG2000 or DNxHD, instead of ProRes if it would be as popular.

Perhaps it is because I am not a FCP user that units like this, and cameras like the new JVC that shoots to ProRes, tend to irk me. Sometimes I think the popularity of ProRes is out of all proportion to FCPs installed base.

I've been editing on Avid since 1991. FCPro since 2004. I don't have the numbers but I can say without equivocation that Final Cut Pro is dominating the post market.

I'm sure AJA and the other manufacturers would be doing their stockholders a disservice to bring to market a product unless the numbers were there in the market research.

Perrone Ford · July 15th, 2009, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Gottshalk

I've been editing on Avid since 1991. FCPro since 2004. I don't have the numbers but I can say without equivocation that Final Cut Pro is dominating the post market.

Interesting. Do you feel this is true because of all the independents out there, or are you seeing this in post houses and large shops as well? I know my town is an anomoly, but I haven't worked with any shops around here that use FCP. Every place I've had to deal with is an AVID shop. My friend is a producer at the city and they are on AVID. The AP Affiliate that I work with sometimes is Avid, the local TV stations are AVID, the PBS station that I work with on a regular basis is AVID. I'm the odd bird with Vegas, but I just can't afford an AVID system at this point.

I know they use FCP up at FSU in the film school, but I don't work with them directly. Just have a friend in the program.

Matt Gottshalk · July 15th, 2009, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

Interesting. Do you feel this is true because of all the independents out there, or are you seeing this in post houses and large shops as well? I know my town is an anomoly, but I haven't worked with any shops around here that use FCP. Every place I've had to deal with is an AVID shop. My friend is a producer at the city and they are on AVID. The AP Affiliate that I work with sometimes is Avid, the local TV stations are AVID, the PBS station that I work with on a regular basis is AVID. I'm the odd bird with Vegas, but I just can't afford an AVID system at this point.

I know they use FCP up at FSU in the film school, but I don't work with them directly. Just have a friend in the program.

I know that different markets are, obviously, different. Here in DC EVERYONE used to be AVID.

Now there are only two larger post shops in town on AVID, everyone else is on FCPro.

All of the smaller and independent shops as well as they can buy more seats for less money.

Barry J. Anwender · July 23rd, 2009, 07:44 AM

AJA claims and promotes that they enjoy close collaboration with Apple. Today Apple announced new flavors of its ProRes codec in FCP7. ProRes 4444 samples at 12 bits per pixel and runs at 330 megabits per second at 1080/60 frame rates. ProRes 422 (LT) samples at 10 bits per pixel and runs at 100 megabits per second at 1080/60 frame rates. Since, the AJA-KI is ProRes based, does it/will it support the new ProRes 4444 Codec or the old ProRes 422 lightweight codec?

Emmanuel Plakiotis · July 24th, 2009, 01:00 AM

The ProRes 4444 is about 40 Mb/s, something that is doable on a fast SSD. This will certainly rival HDCAM SR quality, if the ProRes is a more efficient codec than Sony's (probably is because is newer). In any case it will have the added benefit of a very smooth and economical workflow from shooting, through post up to printing, that no other system can boast at this moment. Many aspiring directors and/or cinematographers have failed to understand how expensive a rocky production path can be, especially on projects destined to television or web. Of course you have to have FCS.

I wouldn't even be surprised if people were capturing Red footage on KiPro, kissing goodbye the 4K post nightmare, although I don't think that Red has a 1080p live out.
Certanly we live in interesting times in regard to budget HD acquisition that hopefully will upscale the production values of independent filmmaking.

Zsolt Gordos · July 24th, 2009, 01:37 AM

Hi Jon,

thanks for all the detailed answers and patience when answering same or similar questions. You really go the extra mile for your audience and for your product! (I hope your boss will read this.)
When I first have read about KI it appeared to me as a competitor in the camera market. (No need to discuss this, just my gut feeling.)
Basically my understanding was that I could use my existing cameras (or buy a cheaper cam for that matter) yet end up with results similar to higher end (and expensive) cameras if the hardware built in the camera allows better PQ and resolution than its output specification enables.

Then I had to learn that Canon 5D MkII is not an option today due to downscaling its HDMI output. Sigh...
On the other hand I see KI product photos with tiny HD cameras typically designed for family vacation "jobs". Do these tiny cameras produce real HD results with KI?
It has also been mentioned by you that with KI one can produce better quality HD videos if the optics and sensor of the camera supports that.

Then there was a question about cameras and you have listed only 4 nice ones, however this list must be far shorter than the possibilities are.
Take Sony V1P (or V1E for Europe). Or any other 1080 HDV.
Which cameras can be considered producing superior results to their original capabilities when combined with KI? Only SD-HDI outputs and HDMI work? How does component outs work in terms of PQ and resolution compared to these?
It would be great to have a list of suitable cameras on the website with some details on how to connect them and what to expect in terms of HD quality. This might generate thoughts of potential buyers who may rather invest in KI than in a new camera.

thanks and best regards,

Zsolt

Jon Thorn · July 24th, 2009, 11:28 AM

Barry A. - The first firmware release for Ki Pro will not include support for the latest Apple ProRes LT and Apple ProRes Proxy codecs, but this support will be added with a firmware update. All firmware updates for Ki Pro will be free of charge. Apple ProRes 4444 will not be supported on Ki Pro since it is a 4:2:2 recorder and does not feature dual link 1.485Gbps or 3Gbps SDI to support 4:4:4 input.

Emmanuel P. - There has been great interest in using Ki Pro to produce high quality recordings that may be superior - in terms of compression - to what is available from the on-board recorders in some cameras. However, for data centric cameras, like the RED One, the on-board recording can be of a very, very high quality and so the Ki Pro recording - which is essentially taking a "video tap" output from a data centric camera - should not be considered a substitute. The best results from a data centric camera - like RED One - are still those produced by the camera's on-board compression. Ki Pro most benefits video cameras with full quality video output that best represents the data the lens and sensor could produce.

Zsolt G. - A wide, wide range of cameras can be used with Ki Pro. This is why you see images of Ki Pro used alongside camcorders like the Canon HV30. That camcorder - though a small consumer/prosumer model - features manual controls that make it a viable choice. We have not produced a "list of cameras to use with Ki Pro", in part, because if we left any camera off the list that was a viable choice, we'd be doing the model and manufacturer of said camera a potential disservice if people formed the impression that they could not use it with Ki Pro. The best answer to give on the "which camera" question can be simply stated as this: select the camera with the best sensor, the best lens and the best video output possible to pair with Ki Pro to produce the best possible result.

Hope, as always, that this information is helpful,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.

Emmanuel Plakiotis · July 25th, 2009, 01:10 PM

John Thorn - I am aware that Red own compression will give superior results. I was just thinking a way to bypass the Red workflow which is cumbersome, especially for no feature film projects. With ProRes4444 the quality hit would have been minimal, if any, the post production benefits enormous.

BTW is a dual link version of KiPro in the making? I still believe that it will be awesome for indie filmmakers.

Aaron Newsome · July 31st, 2009, 11:42 AM

Jon, would you like to comment on any updated release information? Any clue when we might be able to see these in the wild?

Jon Thorn · August 6th, 2009, 07:46 PM

Emmanuel P. - Regarding your question about a dual link version of Ki Pro... We certainly won't rule out the possibility. Ki Pro was designed as a 4:2:2 recorder therefore it will not be able to record 4:4:4.

Aaron N. - While Ki Pro is not yet available, it should be available soon.

Thanks,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California

Manuel Lopez · August 10th, 2009, 08:09 AM

[QUOTE= but since Apple offers QuickTime decoders for Apple ProRes files for both the Mac and the PC, it is still a useful codec for users who are not working specifically with Final Cut Pro or even a Mac.

Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California[/QUOTE]

Hello. The ProRes Quicktime decoder for Windows is only 8 bits, 10 bit is truncated. This makes impossible high-quality work in Windows with ProRes.

Jon Thorn · August 10th, 2009, 05:34 PM

Manuel L. - I checked with Apple directly and they informed me that Apple ProRes 422 files are indeed 10-bit on Windows using the decoder.

What you might be thinking of is the shortcoming of some applications to interpret QuickTime files on Windows at 10-bit. For a Windows app to get 10 bit sample values out of ProRes, the app itself needs to correctly interpret 10-bit QuickTime files, otherwise the decoder will only deliver 8-bit.

Hope this clarifies things,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California

Manuel Lopez · August 11th, 2009, 03:32 AM

Mr. Thorn thanks for your reply.
But, which app correctly interpret 10-bit QuickTime files on windows?
I have Adobe CS4 on Vista64, and for Adobe app ProRes is only 8 bit. By the way, quicktime files on Blackmagic Uncompressed 10 bit codec is correctly interpreted.

Mark David Williams · August 17th, 2009, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Thorn

Manuel L. - I checked with Apple directly and they informed me that Apple ProRes 422 files are indeed 10-bit on Windows using the decoder.

What you might be thinking of is the shortcoming of some applications to interpret QuickTime files on Windows at 10-bit. For a Windows app to get 10 bit sample values out of ProRes, the app itself needs to correctly interpret 10-bit QuickTime files, otherwise the decoder will only deliver 8-bit.

Hope this clarifies things,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California

Hi John

Would I be able to import this recorders h264 files into windows version of after effects 7? Or Vegas 9

TIA

Mark

Barry J. Anwender · August 23rd, 2009, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Thorn

The first firmware release for Ki Pro will not include support for the latest Apple ProRes LT and Apple ProRes Proxy codecs, but this support will be added with a firmware update. All firmware updates for Ki Pro will be free of charge. Apple ProRes 4444 will not be supported on Ki Pro since it is a 4:2:2 recorder and does not feature dual link 1.485Gbps or 3Gbps SDI to support 4:4:4 input.

Hope, as always, that this information is helpful,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.

Apple's newly released "White Paper" helps to shed some much need light on the ProRes technology in Final Cut Studio 3.0.

http://images.apple.com/finalcutstud..._July_2009.pdf

What is still a mystery is precisely what version of ProRes the AJA KiPro supports at this stage of deployment? The AJA web site is short on details as what versions are actually supported. So following Jon's response (above) we know that the KiPro will not support three of the five members of Apple's "ProRes Family." Future firmware will add "LT" and "Proxy" support. What remains to be answered is -- does the KiPro support Apple's July 2009 White Paper ProRes codecs termed ProRes 422(HQ) and ProRes 422?

It would be extremely helpful if AJA could provide some 3-dimensional thinking/graph in it's marketing response/information - at the very least on it's web page. Thanks in advance.

July 23rd, 2009, 07:44 AM	#94
Barry J. Anwender Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Saskatchewan, Canada Posts: 382	ProRes 4444 AJA claims and promotes that they enjoy close collaboration with Apple. Today Apple announced new flavors of its ProRes codec in FCP7. ProRes 4444 samples at 12 bits per pixel and runs at 330 megabits per second at 1080/60 frame rates. ProRes 422 (LT) samples at 10 bits per pixel and runs at 100 megabits per second at 1080/60 frame rates. Since, the AJA-KI is ProRes based, does it/will it support the new ProRes 4444 Codec or the old ProRes 422 lightweight codec?

July 24th, 2009, 01:37 AM	#96
Zsolt Gordos Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Budapest, Hungary Posts: 414	Which cameras again...? Hi Jon, thanks for all the detailed answers and patience when answering same or similar questions. You really go the extra mile for your audience and for your product! (I hope your boss will read this.) When I first have read about KI it appeared to me as a competitor in the camera market. (No need to discuss this, just my gut feeling.) Basically my understanding was that I could use my existing cameras (or buy a cheaper cam for that matter) yet end up with results similar to higher end (and expensive) cameras if the hardware built in the camera allows better PQ and resolution than its output specification enables. Then I had to learn that Canon 5D MkII is not an option today due to downscaling its HDMI output. Sigh... On the other hand I see KI product photos with tiny HD cameras typically designed for family vacation "jobs". Do these tiny cameras produce real HD results with KI? It has also been mentioned by you that with KI one can produce better quality HD videos if the optics and sensor of the camera supports that. Then there was a question about cameras and you have listed only 4 nice ones, however this list must be far shorter than the possibilities are. Take Sony V1P (or V1E for Europe). Or any other 1080 HDV. Which cameras can be considered producing superior results to their original capabilities when combined with KI? Only SD-HDI outputs and HDMI work? How does component outs work in terms of PQ and resolution compared to these? It would be great to have a list of suitable cameras on the website with some details on how to connect them and what to expect in terms of HD quality. This might generate thoughts of potential buyers who may rather invest in KI than in a new camera. thanks and best regards, Zsolt __________________ Sony XDCAM EX1r, Canon 5DMkII, Røde NTG2, Røde NT1000, Røde Stereo Videomic, Sachtler DV6 SB on Gitzo 1325V, Steadicam Merlin, Omnitracker, Hackintosh 3.5Ghz Quad 8Gb RAM

July 24th, 2009, 11:28 AM	#97
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	Latest questions... Barry A. - The first firmware release for Ki Pro will not include support for the latest Apple ProRes LT and Apple ProRes Proxy codecs, but this support will be added with a firmware update. All firmware updates for Ki Pro will be free of charge. Apple ProRes 4444 will not be supported on Ki Pro since it is a 4:2:2 recorder and does not feature dual link 1.485Gbps or 3Gbps SDI to support 4:4:4 input. Emmanuel P. - There has been great interest in using Ki Pro to produce high quality recordings that may be superior - in terms of compression - to what is available from the on-board recorders in some cameras. However, for data centric cameras, like the RED One, the on-board recording can be of a very, very high quality and so the Ki Pro recording - which is essentially taking a "video tap" output from a data centric camera - should not be considered a substitute. The best results from a data centric camera - like RED One - are still those produced by the camera's on-board compression. Ki Pro most benefits video cameras with full quality video output that best represents the data the lens and sensor could produce. Zsolt G. - A wide, wide range of cameras can be used with Ki Pro. This is why you see images of Ki Pro used alongside camcorders like the Canon HV30. That camcorder - though a small consumer/prosumer model - features manual controls that make it a viable choice. We have not produced a "list of cameras to use with Ki Pro", in part, because if we left any camera off the list that was a viable choice, we'd be doing the model and manufacturer of said camera a potential disservice if people formed the impression that they could not use it with Ki Pro. The best answer to give on the "which camera" question can be simply stated as this: select the camera with the best sensor, the best lens and the best video output possible to pair with Ki Pro to produce the best possible result. Hope, as always, that this information is helpful, Jon Thorn Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc.

August 10th, 2009, 08:09 AM	#101
Manuel Lopez Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Spain Posts: 40	ProRes in Windows is only 8 bits [QUOTE= but since Apple offers QuickTime decoders for Apple ProRes files for both the Mac and the PC, it is still a useful codec for users who are not working specifically with Final Cut Pro or even a Mac. Jon Thorn Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc. California[/QUOTE] Hello. The ProRes Quicktime decoder for Windows is only 8 bits, 10 bit is truncated. This makes impossible high-quality work in Windows with ProRes. __________________ http://digitalfrozen.com/

August 10th, 2009, 05:34 PM	#102
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	Apple ProRes 422 QuickTimes in Windows are 10-bit Manuel L. - I checked with Apple directly and they informed me that Apple ProRes 422 files are indeed 10-bit on Windows using the decoder. What you might be thinking of is the shortcoming of some applications to interpret QuickTime files on Windows at 10-bit. For a Windows app to get 10 bit sample values out of ProRes, the app itself needs to correctly interpret 10-bit QuickTime files, otherwise the decoder will only deliver 8-bit. Hope this clarifies things, Jon Thorn Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc. California

July 24th, 2009, 01:00 AM	#95
Emmanuel Plakiotis Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 344	The ProRes 4444 is about 40 Mb/s, something that is doable on a fast SSD. This will certainly rival HDCAM SR quality, if the ProRes is a more efficient codec than Sony's (probably is because is newer). In any case it will have the added benefit of a very smooth and economical workflow from shooting, through post up to printing, that no other system can boast at this moment. Many aspiring directors and/or cinematographers have failed to understand how expensive a rocky production path can be, especially on projects destined to television or web. Of course you have to have FCS. I wouldn't even be surprised if people were capturing Red footage on KiPro, kissing goodbye the 4K post nightmare, although I don't think that Red has a 1080p live out. Certanly we live in interesting times in regard to budget HD acquisition that hopefully will upscale the production values of independent filmmaking.

July 25th, 2009, 01:10 PM	#98
Emmanuel Plakiotis Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 344	John Thorn - I am aware that Red own compression will give superior results. I was just thinking a way to bypass the Red workflow which is cumbersome, especially for no feature film projects. With ProRes4444 the quality hit would have been minimal, if any, the post production benefits enormous. BTW is a dual link version of KiPro in the making? I still believe that it will be awesome for indie filmmakers.

July 31st, 2009, 11:42 AM	#99
Aaron Newsome Major Player Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Rancho Santa Margarita Posts: 590	Jon, would you like to comment on any updated release information? Any clue when we might be able to see these in the wild?

August 6th, 2009, 07:46 PM	#100
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	Emmanuel P. - Regarding your question about a dual link version of Ki Pro... We certainly won't rule out the possibility. Ki Pro was designed as a 4:2:2 recorder therefore it will not be able to record 4:4:4. Aaron N. - While Ki Pro is not yet available, it should be available soon. Thanks, Jon Thorn Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc. California

August 11th, 2009, 03:32 AM	#103
Manuel Lopez Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Spain Posts: 40	Mr. Thorn thanks for your reply. But, which app correctly interpret 10-bit QuickTime files on windows? I have Adobe CS4 on Vista64, and for Adobe app ProRes is only 8 bit. By the way, quicktime files on Blackmagic Uncompressed 10 bit codec is correctly interpreted. __________________ http://digitalfrozen.com/