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Old September 16th, 2009, 05:26 PM   #1
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compared to the NanoFlash?

Anybody have any thoughts how the KiPro compares to the nanoFlash? We are considering buying one of these to be used as a recorder for a multicam setup. record times? bit rates? formats? blank media $$$

The bit rates for the KiPro is 145 and 220mbps (HQ).

the nanoFlash is variable between the following
Selectable Quality / Record Rates

* Master Quality - I-Frame Only : 160/220 Mbps 4:2:2 I-Frame Full-Raster
* Master Quality - Long GOP : 100/140/160 Mbps 4:2:2 Long-GOP Full-Raster
* Broadcast TV Mode: 50 Mbps 4:2:2 Long-GOP Full-Raster
* Proxy Mode: 19 Mbps 4:2:0 Long-GOP 1440x1080


If comparing both the top quality recording formats Pro res HQ from the Kipro and the iframe 220 of the nanoflash. Which is better? Can the nanoflash go direct to edit using FCP?

just a few questions. anything I'm missing?

Thanks in advance for responses.

Steve
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Old September 17th, 2009, 07:02 PM   #2
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Hi Steve,
I purchased a NanoFlash and it produced some of the most awesome images that I have seen and can recommend it. The two units to me are very different animals both have strengths and weakness.
The NanoFlash is small compact and very easy to mount to the camera’s accessory shoe or other bracket. The NanoFlash is a recorder only and can record SD & HD limited to SDI & HDMI connectivity.
The KiPro is larger more difficult to mount with out expensive hardware mounting options. I can not comment on picture quality as I have not seen one although, my retailer has seen the demo unit and he tell me that the picture quality is very very good.
The KiPro has excellent connectivity and with it’s up down, cross conversionsoptions. It offers great solution to interfacing analogue equipment. For tripod mounted work the KiPro is a solution, but for mobile applications sorry I don’t see it.
I see the KiPro as a rack or desk mounted device a replacement to the MXO2 add a few more bucks and you get great connectivity and a recording solution thrown in. With all the connection offered by KiPro why they never included Y/C remains a mystery me the most common connector on pro and domestic equipment. I am still seriously looking at the KiPro to solve my connectivity issue’s and may still buy one.
My opinion for what it’s worth.
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Old September 17th, 2009, 08:52 PM   #3
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re: compared to nanoFlash?

Steve M. - First, before any sort of comparisons, I want to be sure to note that any comments I make here are not meant as a slight to Convergent Design and what they are trying to accomplish with their product. Too often comparisons turn into "shootouts" that don't serve to answer the questions posed.

So, to specifically answer the questions you posed, you will note your question and then my reply below it.

Q: Record times?
A: Ki Pro ships with a 250GB Storage Module which is capable of recording up to 3 hours of Apple ProRes 422 at 1080i or 2 hours of Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) at 1080i. Depending upon the format and framerate, you can record for even greater durations using the standard 250GB Storage Module. We feel that this is a good amount of recording time for 10-bit 4:2:2 quality video with the provided media. By comparison, most Compact Flash cards, which the nanoFlash utilizes, will be of much smaller capacities and even if recordings are dropped to 100Mbps, this may represent less recording time by comparison. You may also note that not all Compact Flash media will be suitable for making the I-Frame 160Mbps and 220Mbps recordings with the nanoFlash.

Q: Bit rates?
A: With the 1.0 firmware, Ki Pro supports recording at either 145Mbps for Apple ProRes 422 or 220Mbps for Apple ProRes 422 (HQ). A later firmware update will enable Ki Pro to additionally record to the 100Mbps Apple ProRes 422 (LT) and 36Mbps Apple ProRes 422 (Proxy) codecs recently introduced with Final Cut Pro 7. Personally, I think that Apple ProRes 422 is the "sweet spot" among these choices at 145Mbps; it produces visually excellent results with relatively low bandwidth requirements.

Q: Formats?
A: Ki Pro 1.0 firmware supports the following video formats and frame rates:
525i 29.97
625i 25
720p 50
720p 59.94
1080i 25
1080i 29.97
1080PsF 23.98
Other formats and frame rates will be added with future firmware updates. Firmware updates will be free of charge.

Q: Blank media $$$?
A: Ki Pro ships with one 250GB Storage Module as noted. Additional 250GB Storage Modules can be purchased for just over $1 per GB in terms of cost vs. capacity. 500GB Storage Modules and SSD units will be available shortly.

Q: If comparing both the top quality recording formats Apple ProRes (HQ) from the Ki Pro and the I-Frame 220Mbps of the nanoFlash, which is better? Can the nanoFlash go direct to edit using FCP?
A: First, the Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) recordings are 10-bit, while all of the nanoFlash recordings, including the 220Mbps flavor, will be limited to 8-bit. So in situations where color specificity is important (shooting green screen content or wide color gradients like a sunset) this difference will be of importance. 10-bit material is also preferred for material when performing color correction.

Second, The Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) material is native to Final Cut Pro as well as the other Final Cut Studio applications so working with material in this codec is very straightforward. While you can import the higher bit rate recordings produced on the nanoFlash into Final Cut Pro, they will likely be perceived as 50Mbps files; they may maintain their original quality if no effects or rendering is performed. If you work with the material and don't set the rendering in the Final Cut Pro Preferences to render as Apple ProRes, you may be knocking down the quality of what was originally encoded to 50Mbps. Apple ProRes 422 recordings maintain their quality throughout the post production process since they are perceived as native to the Final Cut Studio applications.

Most video professionals feel that Apple ProRes 422 is a high-quality alternative to uncompressed. I personally find it to be visually indistinguishable from an uncompressed source. I performed the "blind taste test" many times and could never determine uncompressed from Apple ProRes 422 in such testing when we were first introduced to the codec. Many post facilities have decided to produce and master their programs with Apple ProRes 422 due to the excellent quality it provides.

Lance L. - You do point out some of the additional differences with the units in your note. The nanoFlash is indeed physically smaller due in large part to the smaller media it uses to record onto and because it offers far less connectivity. While you are entitled to your opinion about Ki Pro being more difficult to mount, AJA created the optional Exoskeleton to make mounting the unit under the camera as unobtrusive as possible. We also organized the layout of the product to logically mirror the way most cameras are laid out; with an operator side and a connector side. As far as working with it handheld, you can also mount the unit behind a camera by using a rod system and inverting the Ki Pro Rod Endplates on the Exoskeleton. To see an example of this, you can visit Zacuto's website at the following URL:
Zacuto USA 888-294-3456 | Zacuto-AJA Ki Pro Kits
Since I've personally handheld a configuration just like this on more than one occasion, I feel that it actually helps to balance out many of these handheld camcorders that you would otherwise have to hold out in front of you somewhat at arm's length.

Also as you note, Ki Pro offers up, down and crossconversion, which can be used to unify a variety of cameras to produce one format, frame rate and codec before reaching post-production. The nanoFlash does not offer any conversion capabilities.

Finally, to answer your question, we didn't put an S-Video connector on Ki Pro because we hope people will use the best possible video input connectivity - component analog, SDI or HDMI - in order to produce the best possible recordings. Composite and S-Video don't produce optimal results in comparison to component, SDI or HDMI.

I know that you were interested in purchasing Ki Pro based on another thread, but our release time frame and your purchase time frame didn't align. For that I'm sorry, but I'm also glad to hear that you are still considering the AJA product based on it's merits.

Also, forgive the somewhat tardy reply to the original post in this thread, but I literally just got back from the IBC tradeshow in Amsterdam and I'm feeling a bit jet-lagged.

Regards,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California
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Old September 17th, 2009, 09:36 PM   #4
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thanks for the replies

Jon- can you hot swap the drives? will the recording "rollover" to the express cards during the "switch'?

the Apple pro res codec make a lot of sense to me since we Post in the Apple world.

we may buy 2 units! this is a great alternative to buying a server based HD recorder. To me it's not that hard to pop the drive and offload it to a computer.

One more question Jon- How easy is it to access different clips or shows for playback?
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Old September 18th, 2009, 01:52 AM   #5
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First off I don't have a Ki-Pro so I can't comment on its image quality or other factors. I do use FCP so know that ProRes is a good codec. I do however own a NanoFlash, which I am blown away by.

The NanoFlash is not just a recorder. It has full playback capability via it's HDMI and HDSDi connectors and you can copy files onto the compact flash cards from a Mac for playback. It also cross converts between HDMI and HDSDi so you can use it to connect a HDSDi camera to a HDMI monitor for example.

I think solid state media is more suited to field use than hard drives. Compact flash cards are reasonably priced and readily available. I can buy extra media for my Nano in most photography stores a x133 32Gb card costs around $90 and will store 36 mins of 100Mb/s 4:2:2. Hot swapping has been promised in a future free firmware update.

The Nano can also now record .mpg and m2v files which are DVD and BluRay ready. You can drop these files directly into most authoring programmes for really fast DVD production.

The Quicktime files from the Nano can be edited directly in FCP with no need to render or anything else just like ProRes. I've been using mine with both an EX1 and a PDW-700 on location traveling to various remote overseas locations, I have also been fitting it in aircraft with some sony mini-cams. For these applications I think the NanoFlash's small size and light weight is essential.

It takes approx an extra 30% increase in bit rate to record 10 bit data over 8 bit giving the same compression ratio. In addition Long Gop is generally considered at least 2.5x more efficient than I frame only. The 100Mb/s NanoFlash footage is incredibly clean and low noise. (I've not found it necessary to use the higher bit rates.) As a result I can grade my footage very hard without degradation. I've compared files created on my Nano and files created by capturing to ProRes using a Decklink card on my Mac. In terms of what I can do with the footage in post there is little difference. If anything I have found that the extra bit depth of the ProRes HQ files brings no advantage as the ProRes clips are noisier than the NanoFlash files. This could be because the Decklink conversion to ProRes is not perfect, I don't know. All I can say for certain is that the NanoFlash is an extremely capable, rugged and versatile device that's really improved the quality of the video I am shooting.
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Last edited by Alister Chapman; September 18th, 2009 at 05:03 AM.
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Old September 18th, 2009, 01:19 PM   #6
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Steve M. - Happy to help answer your questions! Especially now that I feel a bit less jet-lagged from the IBC tradeshow.

Q:Can you hot swap the drives?
A: You cannot "hot swap" the drives in the purest sense of that definition. We do not provide a buffer during recordings so that you can remove one piece of media and then insert another piece of media. However, it currently does not take much time to swap one piece of media for another. You simple use the slot button to unmount the current piece of media, physically remove it, then insert the new media, wait for the media to mount, and then you can begin recording again. Pretty straightforward.

Q: Will the recording "rollover" to the express cards during the "switch'?
A: No. Our forthcoming rollover support will work like this: if you are running out of disk space on the Storage Module you can elect to make the next recording begin on the ExpressCard media via menu selection, but there is no spanning of recordings across the media. We heard too many users have issues with this type of procedure using other file-based recording options. Note that with 1.0 firmware, we have not enabled the ExpressCard slots for media recording so this rollover functionality will be enabled with a later firmware release.

Q: How easy is it to access different clips or shows for playback?
A: Quite easy. The display on Ki Pro lists the clip by name that is currently cued for playback. To navigate through the available clips on the device, you simple use the select up or down buttons. It's as simple as that.

Hope this helps answer your questions. I think that if you are using Final Cut Pro, you would be happy using Ki Pro as your video recorder.

Alister C. - Thanks for joining the discussion. A few comments on your post just for the sake of clarification.

I wouldn't consider the HDMI to SDI or SDI to HDMI on the nanoFlash to be a "crossconversion" as you refer to it, but rather a signal conversion internal to the device. Crossconversion is typically defined as the conversion from 720 to 1080 or 1080 to 720 and the nanoFlash does not provide this feature.

The harddrive is one option for recording with Ki Pro. We spent a great deal of time selecting this mechanism and feel that it is quite robust for recordings. We also offer SSD options if extreme vibration environments call for it. In normal shooting, including handheld work where I've actually banged the whole unit up against a wall while shooting (oops!), I saw no real issue with the use of the harddrive mechanism. In terms of your price point analogy, yes, Compact Flash cards are relatively inexpensive, but consider this: AJA provides the user with media that allows them to get started making recordings, while Convergent Design users must supply their own media for the nanoFlash. Also consider that additional 250GB Storage Modules for Ki Pro can be purchased for close to $1 per GB while the 32GB Compact Flash you noted would be roughly $3 per GB. Another thing to consider is that there is no card reader required with Ki Pro media as there is with Compact Flash media.

I actually think that the ability to record .mpg and .m2v files is a worthwhile addition to the nanoFlash product and it makes a fair amount of sense since the device is an MPEG encoder.

As I noted, you can import the nanoFlash recordings into Final Cut Pro, but there is, as noted by Convergent Design themselves, some "trickery" as Final Cut Pro has knowledge of files up to 50Mbps in the MPEG2 codecs, but not beyond that bit rate. And while the files do import and can be edited, most people prefer to edit with I-Frame codecs when given the choice between I-Frame or Long GOP MPEG2. The encoding of Long GOP MPEG2 during acquisition may be more efficient than I-Frame, as I think you were noting, but the post production workflow is not necessarily more efficient when working with Long GOP in comparison to I-Frame. There is plenty of user opinion out there to corroborate such a statement. Most people would prefer to edit I-Frame material.

Yes, 10-bit files will be larger than 8-bit files, but that is to be expected since you are assigning more information and color specificity. 10-bit is important to a lot of professionals because they want the added color specificity. This is why so many facilities rely on Panasonic D5 and Sony HDCAM SR for tape mastering; because those are 10-bit tape formats. It's also why so many users work with material at 10-bit throughout post; you are getting 1024 variations per color channel vs. the 256 variations per color channel for 8-bit. While I appreciate that you've done grading with material you've acquired and think that it produces fine results, there are certainly situations, as noted in my original reply, where 10-bit color specificity can be an important factor.

Finally, not sure how you were evaluating the Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) material you ingested using the Decklink card (or even what type of connection or video source was used) when you compared it to the nanoFlash material you acquired, so any assessment I might make about what you saw would be purely speculative. Again, Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) is considered to be visually comparable to the uncompressed source when properly encoded.

Regards,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California
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Old September 24th, 2009, 10:50 PM   #7
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Jon- was at a workshop the other day and there was an AJA rep there with a KiPro...they claimed that in the next firmware there will be a "rollover" record to the express slots while switching drives. Any truth to this?

Let me know

Thanks
Steve
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Old September 25th, 2009, 07:34 PM   #8
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Steve M. - Sorry if there was any confusion based on what one of the reps might have told you. I'll try to clarify how this works. Rollover is a planned feature, but it does not produced spanned recordings while you are switching media. In a future firmware update, you will be able to assign a rollover piece of media so that when you reach low capacity and your recordings cannot continue on the primary media, you will be able to immediately begin a new recording on the next piece of available media.

Spanned or bridged recordings and pre-buffered recordings are all items that will not be enabled on the device. Hope this clarification helps.

Regards,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
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California
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Old September 26th, 2009, 07:33 AM   #9
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I don't think there much point in comparing the two devices.
The KI Pro clearly offers higher recording quality (10b Compressed vs 8b Compressed), but it doesn't offers mobility (Weight, size, power consumption,..).
Using the old terminology I would say that the NANO is an ENG device, while the KI PRO is a EFP device.
Back to the recording quality, you must think if you really need that added quality, and if your clients will be ready to pay for it. This extra quality comes at the price and not only on the device: Power, people, faster computer and storing capacity.
8b YUV 422 have been for years the top standard of quality in digital video and have proved rock solid. And there are still working in the world much more (much,much) 8b digital system than 10b.
Best,
rafael
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Old September 29th, 2009, 06:29 PM   #10
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Ki Pro Mobile

Given all the features of the Ki Pro I would MAKE it mobile by putting it into an audio bag
and strapping it over my shoulder (anybody remember the Sony Porta-Paks?). ;-)
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Old September 29th, 2009, 08:23 PM   #11
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Hi Tom,
I remember the Portapck day's very well and it looks like we have come a full 360 degrees . I also had considered putting it in a bag, but would never do it with a hard disk drive a SSD would be ok. If you are going to mount the unit in a bag you really need to give very serious consideration to heat build-up as this is the biggest enemy to electronics component life. I would suggest that you also consider that by mounting the unit in such a manner will it effect the manufactures warranty. Most manufactures warranty their products if they are used in accordance with their recommendations. I see no recommendation from AJA that the unit can be used in this fashion. Unfortunately the KI Pro specifications in the brochure that I have omit size, weight and recommend temperature operating range.
I believe that when you look any of these devices that you disregard the manufactures spin on the product and ask yourself how often would you use the features that I am paying for. Today a lot of capture cards offer up down and other conversions.
Then you really have to consider the price of the KiPro +Exo-Skeleton+Rod Accessory kit + Zacuto-AJA Ki Pro kit and then you can compare it to the NanoFlash price.
I made some enquiries this week if the Ki Pro could be used as an output device for Final Cut Pro timeline via the firewire. The answerer was “NO”, I think this would perhaps conflict with the io products.
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Old October 2nd, 2009, 10:35 AM   #12
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[QUOTE=Lance Librandi;1415560]Hi Tom,
I remember the Portapck day's very well and it looks like we have come a full 360 degrees . I also had considered putting it in a bag, but would never do it with a hard disk drive a SSD would be ok. If you are going to mount the unit in a bag you really need to give very serious consideration to heat build-up as this is the biggest enemy to electronics component life.

Very good point Lance. My alternate approach with the 3 lb unit would be to mount it in the exoskeleton and affix a strap at 2 points then sling it over my shoulder. The unit has so many fine features (as enumerated by Jay Thorn) that I will find a way to use it in more than just a studio application (ever see those pictures in National Geographic where African women balanced big clay pots on their heads ;-)
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Old October 4th, 2009, 08:45 PM   #13
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[QUOTE=Tom Daigon;1426811]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Librandi View Post
Hi Tom,
I remember the Portapck day's very well and it looks like we have come a full 360 degrees . I also had considered putting it in a bag, but would never do it with a hard disk drive a SSD would be ok. If you are going to mount the unit in a bag you really need to give very serious consideration to heat build-up as this is the biggest enemy to electronics component life.

Very good point Lance. My alternate approach with the 3 lb unit would be to mount it in the exoskeleton and affix a strap at 2 points then sling it over my shoulder. The unit has so many fine features (as enumerated by Jay Thorn) that I will find a way to use it in more than just a studio application (ever see those pictures in National Geographic where African women balanced big clay pots on their heads ;-)
Hey Tom if you really want to carry a KiPro then consider how many times shoulder bags slip off and need adjusting now bear in mind that you are also carrying a camera as well. I think you will more than two hands. I would consider that a much more practical solution would be to make a bracket that bolts onto the bottom mounting holes of the KiPro that would allow a 100mm webb belt to pass through. Then you could have the unit waist mounted. Carry it like a Bum Bags around your waist you could have it sitting on your back, front or hip that way it's secure no extra weight on the camera and best of all no expensive frames to buy.
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Old October 6th, 2009, 02:38 AM   #14
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Quick replies before my wedding!

Rafael A. - You're entitled to your opinion regarding the merits of 8-bit video. By the same token, I think there are plenty of people who want to record 10-bit quality video... I think some of them have even posted on the Convergent Design forum to that effect. :-)

Again, I'm not interested in degrading anything that Convergent Design it trying to accomplish with their products; like you, I think the Ki Pro and the nanoFlash are different products. And while both are tapeless video recorders, they offer very different capabilities. People will choose the product that best suits them based on the merits they feel are important to them.

Tom D. - I have to admit, I haven't tried putting Ki Pro in an over-the-shoulder bag. Not saying you can't though! Keep in mind that this is not some heavy old 3/4 inch device tethered to the camera... it weighs under 4lbs. People are going to come up with ways they think suit them best in terms of making the product mobile. For our part, we tried to make the product system flexible enough that you weren't totally on your own in terms of how to integrate or mount the product with a variety of cameras. There are tap holes in the bottom of the unit that could be used for custom mounting if people wanted to go that route instead of our optional exoskeleton and rod end plates.

Lance L. - Ki Pro weight, dimensions, power consumption, etc. are all listed at the end of the Ki Pro manual. Even if you don't have the product, you can obtain the manual from the AJA website at:
Ki Pro - AJA Video - Serial Digital Video Interface and Conversion

The listed weight for the Ki Pro in the manual is 3.7lbs (1.67kg)

Operational temperature range isn't noted in the manual (not sure why this didn't make it into the manual, but it should be included in the next manual revision - duly noted). Operational temperature range is akin to the cameras you'd pair it with; 40 degrees C roughly being the upper end.

You stated that, "Today a lot of capture cards offer up down and other conversions." Taking this into account... if you acquire footage with a file-based system you can't typically take advantage of the up/down/crossconversions on the capture cards (AJA's included!) as you've already got the data in a file format so the conversions - which would happen over baseband video - aren't something you'll probably do on ingest because then you lose the time advantage of going file-based in the first place. And shooting multiple cameras all to the same format, frame rate, and codec by using the conversions is certainly useful for some users. Not sure if you consider this "marketing spin" but it's a feature of the product that differentiates it. And yes, the size of the nanoFlash does differentiate it from Ki Pro; it is indeed smaller, but it does not offer some of the same connectivity or features.

Ki Pro is not enabled to work as an input/output/"capture card" device for Final Cut Pro at this time, but this is something we certainly wouldn't rule out if possible to implement. We aren't "not implementing it" to save other sales, we just designed the product first and foremost to be a video recorder. We've heard this suggestions from other users as well, so it's getting serious consideration.

Tom D. - I think you'll find a way to make Ki Pro mobile for your particular application that is better than balancing it on your head! ;-)

Lance L. - A belt mount would certainly be an interesting and a cost-effective way to deal with putting Ki Pro on your person. Maybe when I get back from my vacation and wedding I'll try it! I'm comfortable using it handheld via the exoskeleton, rods and Zacuto pieces, but I can appreciate other options that people come up with if they think that suits them better!

Okay, this is my last post for a while... wedding is only a few days away now.

Hope this posting is helpful for everyone.

Regards,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California
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Old October 6th, 2009, 09:47 AM   #15
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Okay, this is my last post for a while... wedding is only a few days away now.

Hope this posting is helpful for everyone.

Regards,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California[/QUOTE]

Congratulations Jon and have a wonderful honeymoon!

Tom Daigon
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