Using a BOOM MIC to record instructional hair styling video? at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > All Things Audio

All Things Audio
Everything Audio, from acquisition to postproduction.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 29th, 2007, 07:47 PM   #1
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 45
Using a BOOM MIC to record instructional hair styling video?

Hi, I'm looking for some advice...

We currently film our instructional hair styling DVD's with a Sony A1U and then write to the video and record the audio after we film with a Rode NT1 and drop the audio in later.

But we want more interaction in our DVD's now. I was thinking of using a boom mic to capture the audio for my wife WHILE she's doing th hair.

Because the problem is we'll record with the Rode NT1 which sounds good, but we'll also hook her up to a Sennheiser G2 wireless lavalier for after the fact shots we put in the DVD's and the audio doesn't match up and I'm not getting the quality I want out of the G2 system.

So I was thinking to get the same audio quality ALL THE WAY through the entire DVD and have BETTER quality DVD's as far as audio goes, we should move to a shotgun/boom mic system.

Do you think this will provide better quality audio?

If so, what brand would you recommend?

I was thinking the Sennheiser system...
Ricky Breslin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 29th, 2007, 08:44 PM   #2
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: North Hollywood, CA, United States
Posts: 790
The sound of that the microphone produces also has to do with the environment in which the audio was recorded. Just pecause you use the same mic in two different locations doesn't mean that it will sound the same. I agree it sounds bad when the speech of the same person sounds different when cutting the ADR with the on-location audio. A boom may be the way to go, but you would have to have a boom operator following the subject around. I wouldn't recommend a shotgun for indoor recording, you usually get too many echos with a shotgun. Go for a super-cardioid, or just mount the NT-1 on the boom and see (or hear) how it does.
Edward Carlson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 29th, 2007, 08:51 PM   #3
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Sydney.
Posts: 2,569
Can she cut/trim/colour/comb and narrate well at the same time? If so boom her, you'll pick up the working sounds from a better distance perspective and get some client comments and salon acoustics.

Do some tests, eg: turn off aircon etc. If it's too live hang some blankets off cam. Don't play copyright music from a radio in back.

Watch out, my wife's a perfectionist she'd do too many takes and we'd have bald talent, then she'd cut up the lav cable. :)
Cheers.
Allan Black is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 29th, 2007, 09:15 PM   #4
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Carlson View Post
The sound of that the microphone produces also has to do with the environment in which the audio was recorded. Just pecause you use the same mic in two different locations doesn't mean that it will sound the same. I agree it sounds bad when the speech of the same person sounds different when cutting the ADR with the on-location audio. A boom may be the way to go, but you would have to have a boom operator following the subject around. I wouldn't recommend a shotgun for indoor recording, you usually get too many echos with a shotgun. Go for a super-cardioid, or just mount the NT-1 on the boom and see (or hear) how it does.
We're not using the same mic in two different locations. The Rode NT1 is for the audio she wrote for the DVD. And the Sennheiser G2 lav is for when we film her telling stories in between instruction, etc for the DVD.

I'm just saying it sucks because it's so noticable between the lav and Rode.

I was thinking if I bought something like this:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...phone_Set.html

It'd be better and the audio would be the same ALL the way thru.
Ricky Breslin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 29th, 2007, 09:18 PM   #5
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan Black View Post
Can she cut/trim/colour/comb and narrate well at the same time? If so boom her, you'll pick up the working sounds from a better distance perspective and get some client comments and salon acoustics.

Do some tests, eg: turn off aircon etc. If it's too live hang some blankets off cam. Don't play copyright music from a radio in back.

Watch out, my wife's a perfectionist she'd do too many takes and we'd have bald talent, then she'd cut up the lav cable. :)
Cheers.
Yea she can do that. We have 9ft smooth celings in a pretty big room where we film. I'm thinking of this:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...phone_Set.html
Ricky Breslin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2007, 03:36 AM   #6
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Augusta Georgia
Posts: 5,413
Your link is to a Schoeps CMC-6 with the MK-41 capsule, commonly referred to as a CMC641.

This is an excellent microphone, a great long-term investment.

It is very sensitive to handling noise.

Since the hair stylist will be moving around, you may need to use a boompole with a boom operator. You will also need some type of suspension to mount the microphone. Also the "Cut-1" filter for the CMC641 will help with the handling noise.

If the hair stylist will not be moving much, you may be able to mount the microphone overhead, just out of frame using a proper microphone stand or other arrangement. In my opinion, it is unlikely that this will work since I would expect the hair stylist to be moving around or at least pointing his or her head in different directions.

Alternatively, you could hire an experienced sound person with his or her equipment.

Your main issue is that the two microphones do not match well in sound qualities. The lavaliere, usually the ME2, that comes with the Sennheiser wireless is not the best for what you are doing. Other lavalieres, such as a Tram TR50 will work much better. You will be amazed at the difference.

It is definitely better to use just one microphone during the entire shoot, if possible. The CMC641 is one of the best there is for this type of work.

In addition, you should record some "Room Tone", a period of silience in the room that you recorded the audio. Then if you record the hair stylist in a more controlled environment, you will be able to add the "Room Tone" in post to help make it appear that it was recorded in the same place. Please note that "a period of silience" will never be really silient due to ambient noise. This technique is standard practice, but the most important item is to use a better microphone than the Sennheiser ME2 lavaliere.
__________________
Dan Keaton
Augusta Georgia
Dan Keaton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2007, 05:45 AM   #7
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: switzerland
Posts: 2,131
you definitely need to use a headset with a mic. can be wireless.
if you already got a detachable lavallier from your wireless , you can transform it into headset mic easily.
Giroud Francois is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2007, 06:31 AM   #8
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Breslin View Post
We're not using the same mic in two different locations. The Rode NT1 is for the audio she wrote for the DVD. And the Sennheiser G2 lav is for when we film her telling stories in between instruction, etc for the DVD.

I'm just saying it sucks because it's so noticable between the lav and Rode.

I was thinking if I bought something like this:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...phone_Set.html

It'd be better and the audio would be the same ALL the way thru.
Here's a thought ... use some viewer psychology and instead of trying to make it sound the same all the way through (which is going to be a difficult task) try to make it sound even MORE different. Imagine if she was cloned into two copies and one clone was working on the model while the other clone was standing right beside your audience-person at the camera position and they were watching the scene together. The timbre of the voice of the conversation overheard from 8 feet away would be very different from the same voice speaking directly to you from a few inches from your ear. And if the commentary was recorded as the two of you watched a video of the action it woulkd be even more different. Voice-Over, IMHO, should create the feeling that the narrator is sitting next to you in the theatre or on your sofa and explaining what the two of you are seeing on the screen and will have a very different sound and feel to it than the audio coming from in the scene itself.
__________________
Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!
Steve House is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2007, 10:19 AM   #9
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Posts: 2,323
Don't make this more complicated than it has to be.

Simply use a tan Countryman e6 mic wired properly for your wireless for the whole thing. Get her to do the VO in the same location. That way the audio will match.

The cmc641 is a perfect boom mic, but you've told us little about the acoustic environment. The e6 will always be right at her mouth, even when she's looking down (away from the boom). It'll sound better than the Schoeps if it's 18" away (or more) and in a hard, reflective environment.

Stigmatized by the thought of almost seeing the tiny boom!??!?!?!?! :)
Get over it. It's almost 2008. :)

Regards,

Ty Ford
Ty Ford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2007, 12:49 PM   #10
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 45
Great suggestions everyone, thanks a lot!

I've attached a picture of our environment. It's a square room, cherry wood floors, 9 foot smooth ceilings, about 350-375 sf.

I don't care about cost, I just want the best and I want to make sure to make a good investment in something that I really like. We really haven't found that sweet spot.

And after watching Ty's video, his boom mic's sounded so good I'm really considering changing.

But Ty, you also mentioned the Countryman e6, that also sounded good on your video. I'm kinda torn...
Attached Thumbnails
Using a BOOM MIC to record instructional hair styling video?-img_2369.jpg  
Ricky Breslin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2007, 01:10 PM   #11
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Posts: 2,323
Hey Ricky,

Thanks for the shot.

Countryman makes the e6 in a dark tan as well; that'll help it disappear into her skin tone.

Even though the mic is an omni, because it's so close to the mouth, you hear a lot less room.

You can hear the difference between the boom mics and the e6 in my mic tutorial mp4 in the Video Folder of my OnLine Archive.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Ty Ford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2007, 02:03 PM   #12
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Espoo Finland
Posts: 380
I have done similar setups (make-up videos). I used wired lavalier (Sanken Cos-11e) on the talent as there is absolutelly no reason to use wireless with less quality and potential problems. Never equate lavalier with radio mic! I also have used cardioid, hypercardioid and short shotgun mics hung from above just outside the frame. Even studio cardioids work fine in these cirqumstances, like Rode NT1-A, cheap and great sound.

Basically the lavalier covers the instructor and the cardioid or hypercardioid (Oktava in my case) the ambience and if the model says something worthwhile. Usually the cardioid/hyper alone is clean and natural enough for the audio, and gives most consisant sound.

Why make things more complicated than necessary?

Of course in my videos there were no loud tools, when using power clippers the narration must come from close placed lavalier. But I have found out the sound from good wired lavalier and a studio condenser are not very far from each other.
Petri Kaipiainen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2007, 03:09 PM   #13
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Burbank
Posts: 1,811
I believe you can use a Cos11 (or smaller Countryman B6, see second link below) mounted at the hairline, wired through the hair and down the back, then cable down the pants and out and it would be completely invisible with the best possible sound:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...icrophone.html

The mic is very small, black, water resistant, etc. It looks like you could easily mount it inside the hair at the side above the ear.

You are in a controlled situation with the same talent, so you can find out what works best. There are experts around who know what kind of tape, pins, etc. are best used to keep the mic in lace. This is a very typical way of using a lavalier.

The lavalier could also be attached under the collar, etc.

For doing voiceover off camera you can just use the clip at a place and distance that gives you the same sound.

As pointed out above, a wired lavalier will give better sound than a wireless setup, without any transmission problems. (However, a Cos11 or B6/E6 can be wired for a wireless transmitter. For some mics you can get a wireless version for a transmitter that will also plug into a power module for use as a wired mic.)

I personally do not like to see the headsets. They reek of cheap infomercial, convention-floor huckster, regional production, and wannabe sportscaster. (The only acceptable use of a headset I have ever seen was Kate Bush in her concert video, but that was because it was her idea to mount a make a mic to use that way.)

Here is info to the Countryman B6. It is actually smaller than the Cos11. The Countryman is used more in theater, and the Cos11 seems to be used more in film:
http://www.countryman.com/store/prod...?id=5&catid=10
(On the page is a link to the pdf for all the B6 and E6 versions.)

From here are links to the E6i omni, E6i directional, headset, etc.:
http://www.countryman.com/store/

Here is an intro guide at from B&H that has some basic information about lavaliers:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/new...icrophones.jsp

A nice article in MIX Magazine on using lavaliers:
http://mixguides.com/microphones/tip...best_lavalier/
Jack Walker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2007, 03:16 PM   #14
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Augusta Georgia
Posts: 5,413
I am concerned about the noise of the clippers.

Professional clippers are usually quieter than consumer models.

But, if the hair stylist is going to be talking over the sound of the clippers, which are going to be approximately a foot away, this seems like a problem to me.

If this indeed is a problem, then I would record the scene, with audio, but without the hair stylist talking. Then I would record separately her narration. Then, in post, I would lower the sound of the clippers to a very low to low level and add the narration as a separate sound track.

Using this technique, you can ensure that the narration is clear, but with the actual clipper sound and other natural sounds in the background.
__________________
Dan Keaton
Augusta Georgia
Dan Keaton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2007, 03:59 PM   #15
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Posts: 2,323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Walker View Post
I personally do not like to see the headsets. They reek of cheap infomercial, convention-floor huckster, regional production, and wannabe sportscaster. (The only acceptable use of a headset I have ever seen was Kate Bush in her concert video, but that was because it was her idea to mount a make a mic to use that way.)
Phew, Jack, it's OK, really, but thanks for verifying my comment that some folks get stigmatized by headworn mics. Cirque de Soliel vocalists use them and theirs are much more visible than the e6. I haven't seen any infomercials with them. I have seen a lot of cheesy infomercials without them though.

A lot of vocalists (singers) use them. A lot of presenters use them that aren't hucksters. I've seen them a lot on exercise videos, corporate training presentations among others.

Again, listen for yourself to the difference in my mic tutorial.mp4. If you're listening on a computer, plug in a set of headphones to really hear the difference.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Ty Ford is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > All Things Audio

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:18 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network