Senheisser Mics Explained?? - Page 2 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > All Things Audio

All Things Audio
Everything Audio, from acquisition to postproduction.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 5th, 2008, 02:05 PM   #16
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: London
Posts: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Moretti View Post
Ty, would you agree that if you're going to go the one mic route, it's better not to choose a shotgun?

I.e. an MKH-50 or a CMC-641 will probably work better outdoors than an MKH-416 or CMIT will work indoors.
Aaaah....good thing I caught this one then from Peter and Ty. So if I can have only 1 good quality mic for indoors and outdoors compromise on a Mkh50 or CMC-641.

Ok, i'm going out to rent and try them out.
Sherif Choudhry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 5th, 2008, 04:31 PM   #17
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: London
Posts: 222
Dan, very useful indeed. The 2nd one was a really good read and explained lots in a real-world and practical way. Your tests on the mkh50 revealed a very interesting performer. Thanks for the links.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Brockett View Post
Sherif:

I would take a look at these articles, they may help to give you a rudimentary knowledge of location sound and mic selection
Location Sound: The Basics and Beyond
As I Hear It - Choosing the Right Microphone
Low Cost Shotgun Microphone Comparison

Dan
Sherif Choudhry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 26th, 2008, 06:24 PM   #18
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 172
Why will an MKH-40 work well for booming indoors but an MKH-416 not, when both are Super-cardioid?
Tyler Franco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 26th, 2008, 06:42 PM   #19
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 2,070
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherif Choudhry View Post
Dan, very useful indeed. The 2nd one was a really good read and explained lots in a real-world and practical way. Your tests on the mkh50 revealed a very interesting performer. Thanks for the links.
Hi Sherif:

I am so glad that you found them useful. Good luck in your search for the right mic although in my opinion, we all mostly need to own two or three to get it right.

Dan
Dan Brockett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 27th, 2008, 04:07 AM   #20
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Franco View Post
Why will an MKH-40 work well for booming indoors but an MKH-416 not, when both are Super-cardioid?
The MKH40 is not a super-cardioid; it's a plain vanilla cardioid. But be that as it may, the inddor outdoor thing is not due to the pattern but rather the exact acoustic principles the mic uses to achieve its pattern directivity. The 416 is an interference tube mic, as are most shotguns, and the problem using it is due to the way the direct sound and the reflected sound interact with each other when you use it in an environment where there are a lot of off-axis reflections such as a normal interior.
__________________
Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!
Steve House is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 27th, 2008, 11:00 AM   #21
New Boot
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: London, UK
Posts: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve House View Post
The MKH40 is not a super-cardioid; it's a plain vanilla cardioid. But be that as it may, the inddor outdoor thing is not due to the pattern but rather the exact acoustic principles the mic uses to achieve its pattern directivity. The 416 is an interference tube mic, as are most shotguns, and the problem using it is due to the way the direct sound and the reflected sound interact with each other when you use it in an environment where there are a lot of off-axis reflections such as a normal interior.
Hi Steve,

do you know any source to read a bit more about this concept?

Regards,


Andres Montana
Andres Montana Duret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 27th, 2008, 11:24 AM   #22
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres Montana Duret View Post
Hi Steve,

do you know any source to read a bit more about this concept?

Regards,


Andres Montana
Trying to remember the references- will check my bookshelf when I get home and let you know. In general, the directivity of interference tube mics is concentrated in the mid-range ... the 416 becomes almost omni at low frequencies. Direct sound from the source arrives along the axis of the tube. Reflected sound arrives from off-axis, slightly delayed due to the longer path. The higher frequency components of the reflected wave are rejected but the lower frequencies are still audible as low frequency reverb, changing the character of the recording and giving it a hollow, recorded in a culvert, kind of sound. Couple that with the comb filtering that can result when the incoming direct sound wavefront and the slightly delayed indirect reflected wavefront collide and mix within the tube and you can have marked changes in the timbre of the sound. Hypers are not so frequency dependent in their directionality so even if there is some reverb audible it doesn't change the character of the sound as much.
__________________
Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!
Steve House is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2008, 12:15 PM   #23
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Chichester UK
Posts: 167
Polar diagram of MKH-416

This is the Sennheiser information on the MKH-416 T. The polar diagram, which bears out what Steve has said about polar pattern varying with frequency, is identical in Phantom powered versions. Anyone wanting to find out more about T powering need only read other parts of this leaflet. NB, the first part is in German, but a few pages later there is an English version.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf MKH_416_T-3_MKH_416_TU-3_18338_0985_Sp3.pdf (4.77 MB, 509 views)
Nick Flowers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2008, 12:22 PM   #24
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve House View Post
The MKH40 is not a super-cardioid; it's a plain vanilla cardioid. But be that as it may, the inddor outdoor thing is not due to the pattern but rather the exact acoustic principles the mic uses to achieve its pattern directivity. The 416 is an interference tube mic, as are most shotguns, and the problem using it is due to the way the direct sound and the reflected sound interact with each other when you use it in an environment where there are a lot of off-axis reflections such as a normal interior.
Ah, I understand. A certain large name online store needs to update their description then. They have the MKH40 listed as a super-cardioid.
Tyler Franco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2008, 01:38 PM   #25
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Franco View Post
Ah, I understand. A certain large name online store needs to update their description then. They have the MKH40 listed as a super-cardioid.
LOL - it happens. Here's the details straight from the horse's mouth ... Sennheiser USA - MKH40 - Product Details
__________________
Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!
Steve House is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 31st, 2008, 12:41 PM   #26
DVCreators.Net
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 888
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve House View Post
Trying to remember the references- will check my bookshelf when I get home and let you know. In general, the directivity of interference tube mics is concentrated in the mid-range ... the 416 becomes almost omni at low frequencies. Direct sound from the source arrives along the axis of the tube. Reflected sound arrives from off-axis, slightly delayed due to the longer path. The higher frequency components of the reflected wave are rejected but the lower frequencies are still audible as low frequency reverb, changing the character of the recording and giving it a hollow, recorded in a culvert, kind of sound. Couple that with the comb filtering that can result when the incoming direct sound wavefront and the slightly delayed indirect reflected wavefront collide and mix within the tube and you can have marked changes in the timbre of the sound. Hypers are not so frequency dependent in their directionality so even if there is some reverb audible it doesn't change the character of the sound as much.

Thanks Steve. I'm still learning the technical aspects about sound and find this fascinating. I would like to help others understand this concept. I think a side by side video showing a shotgun vs a hyper/super cardioid in action would help a lot of people. Can anyone think of a clear way to replicate this concept on purpose? Maybe with a highly reflective surface/room and some kind of boom box that would output certain frequencies? What do you guys think about having a little video/audio demonstration? If you'll help me script it, I can shoot it.
__________________
Guy Cochran
DVinfo Sponsor, Cool Gear - DVeStore!
Guy Cochran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2008, 06:59 AM   #27
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Posts: 2,323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andres Montana Duret View Post
Hi Steve,

do you know any source to read a bit more about this concept?

Regards,
Andres Montana
Even easier Andres,

I explain it on camera and you can hear and see why.
Go to my online archive,
.Mac - iDisk
Look in the Video folder and download the Ty Ford Mic Tutorial.mp4 file. It's a 28 MB file.
Use the arrow to the right of the file to download.
Regards,

Ty Ford
Ty Ford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2008, 07:22 AM   #28
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Posts: 2,323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve House View Post
LOL - it happens. Here's the details straight from the horse's mouth ... Sennheiser USA - MKH40 - Product Details
Well the pattern, itself, is not the issue. The Schoeps lists the cmc641 as a supercardioid. I think they (and Sennheiser) know the differences. The issue, as Steve explained, is the interference tube.

When is an interference tube not an interference tube? The Sanken CS-3e LOOKS like an interference tube mic, and it is....sort of, but unlike traditional interference tube mics, the main capsule is at the tip of the mic and not halfway down the tube or more. Instead there are other capsules below the Sanken CS-3e tip that help it be more directional. As such, the CS-3e does not behave like a traditional interference tube mic with one capsule halfway down the tube.

Ever been inside an interference tube mic? Below is a Sennheiser 416 and Sennheiser NTG-3 out of their skins for everyone to see. The capsule ends up being about halfway down the slotted tube.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Attached Thumbnails
Senheisser Mics Explained??-rodentg-3-mkh416-open.jpg  
Ty Ford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2008, 09:31 AM   #29
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Chichester UK
Posts: 167
Prssure gradient Microphones

Ty, very many thanks for that picture of a 416 separated from its tube. I had vaguely taken in that it was a pressure gradient mic from the literature, but hadn't really devoted much thought to the obvious consequence - that as the diaphragm is exposed to pressure differences existing between both sides of it as the waves pass, therefore the interference tube should be roughly symmetrical on both sides. Never too old to learn.
Nick Flowers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 1st, 2008, 06:00 PM   #30
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Posts: 2,323
Well, the real deal is that as directional as interference tube mics are at high frequencies, they are way less directional at mid and low frequencies.

How could they possibly have been used all these years? Historically, there was always someone to yell, "Quiet on the set.", before rolling. That meant there was a set; a space that had been designed (or treated) to reduce sound bounce and that there wasn't much if any other noise around the mic.

Regards,

Ty Ford
Ty Ford is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > All Things Audio

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:13 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network