Getting rid of noisy kids at DVinfo.net

Jim Andrada · January 26th, 2009, 12:40 AM

Our Brass Band plays at a local mall every Christmas season. And they always put us next to the kiddie play area. So, as you might imagine, the recordings are always full of noisy kid sounds. This year it was really bad!

Does anyone have any good ideas how to eliminate/reduce the kid noise in the recording?

Andy Wilkinson · January 26th, 2009, 01:29 AM

Just before you are about to start recording start handing out leaflets promising free Sony Playstations to the first fifty under 10 year olds that visit some store located as far away in the mall as possible.

By the time they all get back you will have your nice recording and will have left!

No seriously, you obviously need to record the music in a better (quieter) location. It would be difficult to sync up live soundtracks but you could (with care and lots of cutaways) sync up "playing in mall video shots" with the music soundtrack recorded elsewhere ...perhaps...but why bother? Just find a better location to do your recordings next year.

Jim Andrada · January 26th, 2009, 02:47 AM

I've thought of more drastic things to do with the kids than handing out leaflets.

Unfortunately, the only space they can give us for the concerts is right next to their kiddie play area.

I've even wondered if it would work to record the kids to another track and invert it and subtract them out, but of course, even with a tight pattern mic placed right next to the kiddies the space is so live that there'd be band on the kiddie track too. Although this is really only an issue on the parts of the recording where the band is really quiet.

Maybe I could do what Yo-Yo Ma did for Obama's inauguration and use recordings I made at rehearsal - hmmmm - maybe if I recorded an hour of "ambience" at the mall and mixed it with rehearsal recordings ...

There are days when I wish that microphones worked like camera lenses and you could decide what to leave out!

Steve House · January 26th, 2009, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Andrada

Our Brass Band plays at a local mall every Christmas season. And they always put us next to the kiddie play area. So, as you might imagine, the recordings are always full of noisy kid sounds. This year it was really bad!

Does anyone have any good ideas how to eliminate/reduce the kid noise in the recording?

A perfume sprayer filled with chloroform is always appropriate around small rug-rats.

Jim Andrada · January 26th, 2009, 10:33 AM

OK, so far I have deceit and chloroform. I've thought of duct tape, announcing that their teachers are coming to give a test, telling their mothers that the shopping center used lead-based paint on the slides, etc.

Didn't really think there was any good way, just frustrated by not being able to make a quality product, so to speak.

On the other hand, the shoppers really enjoyed the concert, which is what it's all about and why we keep getting invited back.

Brian Drysdale · January 26th, 2009, 04:10 PM

If you can't remove the kids, it might be better to go with the flow and include some shots of them reacting to the music. At the very least it would explain the sounds in the background.

Paul Mailath · January 26th, 2009, 05:12 PM

can you put a separate recorder right next to the band minimising the noise of the kids? I also really like the idea of getting the audio at a rehearsal.

Richard Alvarez · January 26th, 2009, 05:16 PM

There's an extremely high frequency noise that some municipalities use to run off loitering kids. You might find out what it is and play it a half hour before show time.

Seriously.

Apparently, there's a frequency that is picked up by ears that are about 10 - 18 years old, at which point these tiny hairs in the ear canal started to die/diminish. The frequency can't be heard by adults, and it drives kids crazy. Although some cell phone makers are also selling it as a 'silent' ring tone, that adults can't hear. I'll see if I can find a link to it.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...95142395_x.htm

http://www.boingboing.net/2006/05/24...een-repel.html

Chris Soucy · January 26th, 2009, 11:39 PM

I'd like to join in the fun and suggest something even more extreme to cure the rug rat problem but have a feeling I'd get arrested.

On a serious note, you didn't actually mention a budget for this task, so will throw this in there on the off chance.

Why not "close mic" the players to such an extent that, by comparison, the kids background noise is almost non existant?

Gonna need a lot of mics and one heck of a mixing desk, but if the mics are practically "down the throat" of those instruments, the background is going to have to be damn loud to get a look in.

I can't think of another solution which doesn't involve erecting a sound proof wall between the two activities, which sounds pretty unlikely, tho' visions of those free standing, moveable and linkable soft padded, hard centred office partition things that stand about 5 - 6 feet high have flashed through my mind.

What sound system setup are you running at the moment?

I'm envisaging the "pop concert" scenario where every instrument is so close mic'd (and thus cranked down) the audience of 150,000, all yelling at the top of their voices, can hardly be heard.

Just an idea.

CS

Jim Andrada · January 27th, 2009, 01:03 AM

Well, we have I think 28 musicians so close mic'ing would be a tad on the pricey side.

Once we're all honking you can hardly hear the kids - it's during a solo or something where they really get obnoxious

Maybe the solution is to play nothing less than forte - Sousa marches only!

Petri Kaipiainen · January 27th, 2009, 01:27 AM

Use figure-of-8 mics with nulls pointing to the play area.

Matt Ratelle · January 27th, 2009, 10:03 AM

Intriguing question Jim! I'm going to assume(because you haven't mentioned what you're recording your audio with) that you either are recording through a camera mounted mic, or just have a few mics to capture the entire group. Ultimately, the outcome will depend on the size of the area, the height of the ceiling, the number of people watching(which will absorb some of the sound waves), and how your band is arranged. Perhaps you can give us some more information on room dimensions, the size of your band, and the room setup. With no further information though, I'd say you have two options which you should really look at if you want a quality video, but both will cost a bit of money.

Option 1: Contact a local audio company and rent a mic for every instrument, a board to mix it with, and a recorder. If you're lucky they may even have a recorder that can keep the channels separate rather than mixing them down into one signal, so that you have the ability to manipulate the levels during the editing process. Make sure the person operating the board has lots of experience with live bands and mixing multiple signals(rather than just recording one signal at a time as is common practice with some recording companies). If you're renting a system, they may try to get you to set up speakers so that the crowd can hear the mixed signal. In my experience, this creates an extra headache, so try to avoid that. It would basically be willing adding a rogue signal...not unlike your annoying kids, to the recording. Because of delay you would experience an echo, and distortion. This option will cost you guys a fair chunk, so you might want to plan in advance and pass a hat around for donations. Keep in mind you could also sell your DVD to subsidize the rental if you think there would be a market for that.

Option 2: Rent or construct a barrier. This one all depends on the layout of the room, but it would be quite a bit cheaper than renting equipment. You will not attain the same level of recording as with separate mics, but if you're content with capturing it all on 2 or 3 mics...then this is your option. As mentioned before, the size of the room will come into play here. You'll want something that will be quite a few feet taller than the highest band member, and you'll want to set it up in a fashion so that it will extend a few feet on the side and close in on an angle. Father forgive me, for I have sinned and added an ASCII drawing.

o o o o (annoying kids)
o o o

/----------------\ (backdrop)
/o o o o o o o o o\
o o o o o o o o (band members)
1 2 3 (mics)
xxxxxx xxxxxx (audience)
xxxxxx xxxxxx
xxxxxx xxxxxx
xxxxxx xxxxxx

****The drawing was formatted better before posting....I guess it changes it when you post, but I think you still get the idea****

Bill Pryor · January 27th, 2009, 10:29 AM

Pass out candy...something really sticky like toffee or Tootsie Rolls?

Can you close-mic just the instruments that are going to go solo?

Bryan Daugherty · January 27th, 2009, 04:11 PM

I think Bill is on the right track here. If during the crescendo moments the kids are unnoticeable, then you don't have a worry there. I agree with Bill, Mic the solos or (if you cant afford that but can afford one mic) set a solo mic and have soloists maneuver to it prior to their solo. You also might want to set boom pole mounted mics angled toward the performers from overhead at an oblique angle to the play area. It would take some practice to get the angles right. Good luck, and if you have the budget, Matt's ideas would be great too. Would be helpful to know what your current setup is like.

Jim Andrada · January 27th, 2009, 10:31 PM

I've recorded the same group in the same setting before with kids in the same place, but this past year they were REALLY noisy.

Anyhow - setup is a Schoeps M/S pair mounted very close to the director - maybe only three feet behind her and slightly above her head. Mics are attached to an SD302/702 combination. I know the mixer isn't really required, but much easier to set levels with the readout on the 302.

I like the idea of close mic'ing individual instruments, and it would give me a great reason to buy another half dozen or so mics, but at Schoeps current prices, I think I'll respectfully decline the suggestion;<)

It gets a little more complicated because even during solos, we often have a quiet accompaniment from the rest of the band, so I wouldn't be able to cut between solo and full band.

Here's one piece from the concert - the kids are worst a few seconds into it and just before the end, but once we get honking there's no problem.

www.j-e-andrada.com/Clip4.mp3

Not our greatest performance, but not too bad considering the venue and the kids (who sounded a lot worse in person than on the recording).

I play tuba in the band and I set the recorder up on a chair next to me so I can keep an eye on levels - obviously can't wear headphones!

I think the real solution is to program louder music and drown out the little -------!!

January 26th, 2009, 12:40 AM	#1
Jim Andrada Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,211	Getting rid of noisy kids Our Brass Band plays at a local mall every Christmas season. And they always put us next to the kiddie play area. So, as you might imagine, the recordings are always full of noisy kid sounds. This year it was really bad! Does anyone have any good ideas how to eliminate/reduce the kid noise in the recording?

January 26th, 2009, 01:29 AM	#2
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Just before you are about to start recording start handing out leaflets promising free Sony Playstations to the first fifty under 10 year olds that visit some store located as far away in the mall as possible. By the time they all get back you will have your nice recording and will have left! No seriously, you obviously need to record the music in a better (quieter) location. It would be difficult to sync up live soundtracks but you could (with care and lots of cutaways) sync up "playing in mall video shots" with the music soundtrack recorded elsewhere ...perhaps...but why bother? Just find a better location to do your recordings next year. __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production

January 26th, 2009, 02:47 AM	#3
Jim Andrada Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,211	I've thought of more drastic things to do with the kids than handing out leaflets. Unfortunately, the only space they can give us for the concerts is right next to their kiddie play area. I've even wondered if it would work to record the kids to another track and invert it and subtract them out, but of course, even with a tight pattern mic placed right next to the kiddies the space is so live that there'd be band on the kiddie track too. Although this is really only an issue on the parts of the recording where the band is really quiet. Maybe I could do what Yo-Yo Ma did for Obama's inauguration and use recordings I made at rehearsal - hmmmm - maybe if I recorded an hour of "ambience" at the mall and mixed it with rehearsal recordings ... There are days when I wish that microphones worked like camera lenses and you could decide what to leave out! Last edited by Jim Andrada; January 26th, 2009 at 03:49 AM.

January 26th, 2009, 05:12 PM	#7
Paul Mailath Trustee Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Central Coast - NSW, Australia Posts: 1,606	can you put a separate recorder right next to the band minimising the noise of the kids? I also really like the idea of getting the audio at a rehearsal. __________________ Cheers - Paul M. www.perbenyik.com

January 26th, 2009, 11:39 PM	#9
Chris Soucy Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 3,682 Images: 18	Hi Jim.............. I'd like to join in the fun and suggest something even more extreme to cure the rug rat problem but have a feeling I'd get arrested. On a serious note, you didn't actually mention a budget for this task, so will throw this in there on the off chance. Why not "close mic" the players to such an extent that, by comparison, the kids background noise is almost non existant? Gonna need a lot of mics and one heck of a mixing desk, but if the mics are practically "down the throat" of those instruments, the background is going to have to be damn loud to get a look in. I can't think of another solution which doesn't involve erecting a sound proof wall between the two activities, which sounds pretty unlikely, tho' visions of those free standing, moveable and linkable soft padded, hard centred office partition things that stand about 5 - 6 feet high have flashed through my mind. What sound system setup are you running at the moment? I'm envisaging the "pop concert" scenario where every instrument is so close mic'd (and thus cranked down) the audience of 150,000, all yelling at the top of their voices, can hardly be heard. Just an idea. CS

January 26th, 2009, 10:33 AM	#5
Jim Andrada Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,211	OK, so far I have deceit and chloroform. I've thought of duct tape, announcing that their teachers are coming to give a test, telling their mothers that the shopping center used lead-based paint on the slides, etc. Didn't really think there was any good way, just frustrated by not being able to make a quality product, so to speak. On the other hand, the shoppers really enjoyed the concert, which is what it's all about and why we keep getting invited back.

January 26th, 2009, 04:10 PM	#6
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	If you can't remove the kids, it might be better to go with the flow and include some shots of them reacting to the music. At the very least it would explain the sounds in the background.

January 26th, 2009, 05:16 PM	#8
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	There's an extremely high frequency noise that some municipalities use to run off loitering kids. You might find out what it is and play it a half hour before show time. Seriously. Apparently, there's a frequency that is picked up by ears that are about 10 - 18 years old, at which point these tiny hairs in the ear canal started to die/diminish. The frequency can't be heard by adults, and it drives kids crazy. Although some cell phone makers are also selling it as a 'silent' ring tone, that adults can't hear. I'll see if I can find a link to it. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...95142395_x.htm http://www.boingboing.net/2006/05/24...een-repel.html

January 27th, 2009, 01:03 AM	#10
Jim Andrada Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,211	Well, we have I think 28 musicians so close mic'ing would be a tad on the pricey side. Once we're all honking you can hardly hear the kids - it's during a solo or something where they really get obnoxious Maybe the solution is to play nothing less than forte - Sousa marches only!

January 27th, 2009, 01:27 AM	#11
Petri Kaipiainen Major Player Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Espoo Finland Posts: 380	Use figure-of-8 mics with nulls pointing to the play area.

January 27th, 2009, 10:03 AM	#12
Matt Ratelle Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: St. Catharines, ON Posts: 63	Intriguing question Jim! I'm going to assume(because you haven't mentioned what you're recording your audio with) that you either are recording through a camera mounted mic, or just have a few mics to capture the entire group. Ultimately, the outcome will depend on the size of the area, the height of the ceiling, the number of people watching(which will absorb some of the sound waves), and how your band is arranged. Perhaps you can give us some more information on room dimensions, the size of your band, and the room setup. With no further information though, I'd say you have two options which you should really look at if you want a quality video, but both will cost a bit of money. Option 1: Contact a local audio company and rent a mic for every instrument, a board to mix it with, and a recorder. If you're lucky they may even have a recorder that can keep the channels separate rather than mixing them down into one signal, so that you have the ability to manipulate the levels during the editing process. Make sure the person operating the board has lots of experience with live bands and mixing multiple signals(rather than just recording one signal at a time as is common practice with some recording companies). If you're renting a system, they may try to get you to set up speakers so that the crowd can hear the mixed signal. In my experience, this creates an extra headache, so try to avoid that. It would basically be willing adding a rogue signal...not unlike your annoying kids, to the recording. Because of delay you would experience an echo, and distortion. This option will cost you guys a fair chunk, so you might want to plan in advance and pass a hat around for donations. Keep in mind you could also sell your DVD to subsidize the rental if you think there would be a market for that. Option 2: Rent or construct a barrier. This one all depends on the layout of the room, but it would be quite a bit cheaper than renting equipment. You will not attain the same level of recording as with separate mics, but if you're content with capturing it all on 2 or 3 mics...then this is your option. As mentioned before, the size of the room will come into play here. You'll want something that will be quite a few feet taller than the highest band member, and you'll want to set it up in a fashion so that it will extend a few feet on the side and close in on an angle. Father forgive me, for I have sinned and added an ASCII drawing. o o o o (annoying kids) o o o /----------------\ (backdrop) /o o o o o o o o o\ o o o o o o o o (band members) 1 2 3 (mics) xxxxxx xxxxxx (audience) xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx **The drawing was formatted better before posting....I guess it changes it when you post, but I think you still get the idea** Last edited by Matt Ratelle; January 27th, 2009 at 02:15 PM.

January 27th, 2009, 10:29 AM	#13
Bill Pryor Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 4,449	Pass out candy...something really sticky like toffee or Tootsie Rolls? Can you close-mic just the instruments that are going to go solo?

January 27th, 2009, 04:11 PM	#14
Bryan Daugherty Major Player Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Lexington, Ky - USA Posts: 552	I think Bill is on the right track here. If during the crescendo moments the kids are unnoticeable, then you don't have a worry there. I agree with Bill, Mic the solos or (if you cant afford that but can afford one mic) set a solo mic and have soloists maneuver to it prior to their solo. You also might want to set boom pole mounted mics angled toward the performers from overhead at an oblique angle to the play area. It would take some practice to get the angles right. Good luck, and if you have the budget, Matt's ideas would be great too. Would be helpful to know what your current setup is like. __________________ 3x-HD1000u - Ikan 8000HD- custom i7 PC - Vegas Pro 13 and 11 64 bit - Premiere Pro CS4 - and a whole mess of other equipment...

January 27th, 2009, 10:31 PM	#15
Jim Andrada Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,211	I've recorded the same group in the same setting before with kids in the same place, but this past year they were REALLY noisy. Anyhow - setup is a Schoeps M/S pair mounted very close to the director - maybe only three feet behind her and slightly above her head. Mics are attached to an SD302/702 combination. I know the mixer isn't really required, but much easier to set levels with the readout on the 302. I like the idea of close mic'ing individual instruments, and it would give me a great reason to buy another half dozen or so mics, but at Schoeps current prices, I think I'll respectfully decline the suggestion;<) It gets a little more complicated because even during solos, we often have a quiet accompaniment from the rest of the band, so I wouldn't be able to cut between solo and full band. Here's one piece from the concert - the kids are worst a few seconds into it and just before the end, but once we get honking there's no problem. www.j-e-andrada.com/Clip4.mp3 Not our greatest performance, but not too bad considering the venue and the kids (who sounded a lot worse in person than on the recording). I play tuba in the band and I set the recorder up on a chair next to me so I can keep an eye on levels - obviously can't wear headphones! I think the real solution is to program louder music and drown out the little -------!!