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Old December 18th, 2003, 04:48 PM   #16
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Sennheiser actually makes a modifed version of the K6 module for Sony cameras. B&H did stock them. Sennheiser service center does offer a conversion for either a little amount of money or for free.

Out of curiosity, did you use pads in addition to using the built-in microphone 'pad' on the 150?

Not to defend Sony but I'd not blame them when someone hooks up a signal source that is too hot.

It takes a lot to blow the inputs. I've inadvertently hooked line into the XLRs when microphone was selected. No problem has resulted. Wonder what was done to your cameraperson's 150 to blow the input.
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Old December 18th, 2003, 05:46 PM   #17
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From an article that was posted here on dvinfo

http://www.dvinfo.net/sony/articles/article08.php

If you do a basic Internet search there are PD150 forums that show this problem were know by Sony yet was not addressed. In the later models they did fix the features more so yet not to the delight of the PD150 users. As to the cameramanís camera his pads were shot as he lost control of his camera on earlier shoots by other audio technicians. As to blowing the inputs the better the mic the hotter the source as he was used to using Audio-Technicas as this brought in a source that could handle it yet using ME67s and the SEMKH70K are to hot for the main inputs so we went for control with a mixer.

Now please note that I did say that this was on cameras that we were using and that the person who posted this question should be aware of the ramifications of the PD150.
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Old December 19th, 2003, 07:53 PM   #18
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I think you are mixing the issues of excessive noise which Sony did address with the issue of dynamic range, which they have not.

The complaints about the 150's sound has always been about the early cameras and their excessive noise.

Jay Rose published a good article on DV camera sound a while back (DV Magazine). His conclusion was that even with the higher-end cameras, like the DSR-300's and 500's, that the sound wasn't all that good and could be equaled or bettered with a portable MD recorder.

I think my DSR-300 has much better sound than the PD150 but evidently even that is not as good as it could be, according to Jay.
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Old December 20th, 2003, 01:14 AM   #19
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To which this point I was making however maintaining the other side that precaution is merited when working with a PD150. I had asked the Cameraman and the Director to do an audio test prior to the shoot only to see what his camera could do. Would you not do this as well? The cameraman declined as he said his equipment was good and that everything was all right. While shooting problems kept arising due to that fact that this cameras inputs were blown.

I am not saying the camera that Helen Bach is using is blown it is that I am saying check then double check. As a professional I believe that we are held to a higher standard one to which we should confirm the many aspects of a shoot. Who is doing the shooting? What type of camera? Do you know the camera? What are its weaknesses as well as its strengths?

To what end did I go for the answers I had asked Jay Rose himself these very questions as to a PD150, as well as doing a good Google search.
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Old December 20th, 2003, 02:59 AM   #20
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Sharon wrote:'I am not saying the camera that Helen Bach is using is blown...'

Hi Sharon,

I'm not sure where I come into this - I'm not having any problems with either my own early VX2000 (which I've used a lot since June 2000, and which got the BBC/Glensound mod as soon as it was available) or other people's PD150s. I normally use them with AT4071 and 4073 mics (significantly hotter than the Senn ME67 and ME66) or the Senn MKH50 either directly connected or via an Audio Developments mixer.

The excellent article by Jon Tatooles that you refer to states that the mic input of the PD150 can cope with -15 dBu before clipping. That is 0.14 V. Even the hottest mics only put that out at over 97 dB.

I entirely agree that equipment should be tested together before use.

Best,
Helen
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Old December 20th, 2003, 05:03 AM   #21
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Helen Bach seems to know her mics and audio pretty well. Based on her few words, i went into an audio shop and picked up the AT835B. I was previously using only the pd150 mic. I also bought a hot shoe adaptor as the long-azz AT835B popped up on screen (.7wide adaptor attached) when i attached it to the pd150 mic mount. A little surprise was that the hotshoe adaptor wonderfully screwed on perfectly to a monopod i had, saving me quite a bit on an overpriced (in my opinion) boompole. I also purchased an additional 6m xlr extension wire and a cheap mic stand for lone ranger scenarios.
All up i probably spent a little over $200US. I'm happy and good to go.

Ziezie to Helen and her insight. Mike Rehmus too of course.
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Old December 20th, 2003, 08:04 AM   #22
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Kevin.

Many thanks for your kind words.

You're right about those monopods - it's also worth looking at lighting booms as a low-budget alternative to those 'overpriced' boompoles.

Where do you get your audio gear? I used to go to Wailian in Sim Lim Square. Great shop, great prices, and happy to export. At least that's how it was when I was last in Singapore in mid-2000. http://www.welect.com/

Best,
Helen
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Old December 20th, 2003, 08:48 AM   #23
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Sharon,

Of course one tests the camera(s). I don't dispute that. I test them before I leave for a shoot and run test footage at the shoot.

It is starting to look like the more our cameras resemble computers, the more bugs we find.

My old EVW-300 didn't do as much as the newer cameras but it had, as far as I know, no major problems. It's replacement, the DSR-300 has a few but they are subtle.

The PD150's have a lot. Sound, WB, EMI susceptibility, Steadyshot fireflies, and more. Now the PD170 has added a few more.

I think this is going to be the trend. You will know it is so when they start supplying new firmware downloads that can be installed via the memory stick. Actually the cameras can probably accept that type of input now.
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Old December 20th, 2003, 10:12 AM   #24
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I see what you mean there. As to the variance of cameras while on two-camera shoot, we had a DSR500 and a DVC200 each was getting split audio feed from the same source the thing is the audio on the DVC200 was better. However the DSR500 had better range.
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Old December 20th, 2003, 11:01 AM   #25
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Hi Helen,

This world is smaller than i think. 6 degrees they say. Haha. Really didn't expect "Sim Lim" from you. I was down there just today. That place always makes me dizzy with four floors jammed to the rim with everything i'd ever want. The purchase today was my second from Hung Brothers (www.hungbros.com). They were recommended by a friend of mine. A small shop but very well stocked and run obviously by brothers. I was served by Adam, a very helpful chap. My first purchase was a lav mic and i think i spent about 2 hours trying various models and getting helpful advice from him. The prices i got from them were pretty hard to beat. If you decide to give them a go, tell them you were recommended (seems to work).

If you don't mind me asking... What brought you to Singapore? Short overseas stint or were you stationed here at one of the local production houses?

Cheers.
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Old December 20th, 2003, 04:02 PM   #26
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<<<-- Originally posted by Helen Bach : Kaifoong wrote:
Sometimes stereo, but using stereo recordings is not easy if the camera angle keeps changing. I don't know the proportions, but I suspect most movies are recorded in mono (possible multi-channel, of course) and turned into stereo during post. There may be a separate stereo or surround ambience recording. Stereo is used in documentary recording to give good ambience.
-->>>

Your suspicion is certainly right. Dialogue is ALWAYS recorded mono and pan potted during the mix.

You may use more mics to pick stereo ambience, but during the mix the dialogue 99% of the times has to be in the middle. There might be lots of phase problems if that stereo dialogue were played on a mono speaker, as sadly still is in the majority of TVs around the world.


Carlos
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Old December 20th, 2003, 10:45 PM   #27
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Ok.

I have some questions now.

The PD150 has 2 xlr inputs each capable of recording to the 1st/2nd audio channel or both. Shooting with a mono mic will put a single track to one of the channel. When i capture this to my NLE, the 2 dv channels get input onto my timeline as a stereo track. I either pick the better track and dupe to the other track - striping the other away(if i shot one on Manual and the other on AGC) or mix both down in a sound app and duping the mixed track into 2 tracks again (stereo).

So how does a stereo mike fit in or change what i mentioned above??

The pd150 has a 4 channel mix menu. I am assuming channels 3 and 4 is only available for audio/insert edit dubs on camera after shooting?? Do i only slide the mix to the middle of 1/2 and 3/4 channels in the cases where i do do an insert edit of audio after shooting? I have so far just made use of channels 1 and 2 leaving the slide at the extreme left.

Thanks.
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Old December 20th, 2003, 11:08 PM   #28
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If you cut one track by so doing you need to add the other right. Yet this is not true stereo what has to be done next is to fool our ears. We do this by laying down the second track off by 100th or just a little lore of a second. Our ears hear stereo by one ear hearing it just a little bit out of sync.

As for the 4 channels this won't or I should say can't happen as the camera has to inputs and as such is limited to two channels. To do more than two you will need a DAT recorder or a Computerized Deck as we did this weekend shooting a live performance we or I should say my friend had a deck with six inputs each laying down a separate track to be mixed later by me when I input it into the computer.
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Old December 21st, 2003, 02:21 PM   #29
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And remember that when you use 4 channels of sound on the PD150, sampling occurs at 32kHz instead of 48kHz. Not much of an issue on voice (if you are not fairly picky) but an issue on everything in music except perhaps a music bed (elevator music).

Then you cannot record all 4 tracks at once.

I'm not certain I would ever use the 4 tracks. Just easier to record them as good as possible using something else. Or add something like an MD recorder for the second two channels. Or another camera in a multi-camera shoot.

It is easier to swap sound between channels in something like Sound Forge using the Repair function. I just export the sound tracks and edit accordingly.

Sharon's trick of delaying one channel by 1/100 of a second is great. Most NLE programs don't allow that fine a control (they are limited to editing on frame boundaries) so you will have to edit in something like Sound Forge to get that.
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Old December 21st, 2003, 03:08 PM   #30
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Mike does the PD150 truly record a 3rd and 4th channel and if so where does this come from or should I say go to?
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