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Old June 29th, 2009, 08:17 AM   #16
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The other answer to your question is:

Is it your responsibility to have all the audio taps and mics and cables needed to cover every possible scenario?

Nope. Not at all. Thats the responsibility of the sound guy that you hired and included his fee in your original budget estimate!

Kinda snarky, but also true. Every video guy should find and make friends with a soundie. Often you can lure them into your back yard with traps baited with pizza and beer. You have to be *really really* quiet though.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 09:02 AM   #17
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Garrett, what is this "10 channel A/D firewire box?" I couldn't find any info on it. I suppose by the time I need one, I will know what it is.

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Is it your responsibility to have all the audio taps and mics and cables needed to cover every possible scenario?

Nope. Not at all. Thats the responsibility of the sound guy that you hired...
That's the thing...I didn't do the hiring. Another great reason why a general meeting would have been beneficial. See, I told you it was sticky!

JS

P.S. Garrett could you PM me your souce for cables?
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Old June 29th, 2009, 09:25 AM   #18
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I should also mention that this is the LiveWire Advantage series. But yeah, I had no choice either way.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 10:27 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by John Stakes View Post
Garrett, what is this "10 channel A/D firewire box?" I couldn't find any info on it. I suppose by the time I need one, I will know what it is.



That's the thing...I didn't do the hiring. Another great reason why a general meeting would have been beneficial. See, I told you it was sticky!

JS

P.S. Garrett could you PM me your souce for cables?
You didn't say whether the "sound guy" that was hired was brought onboard as a sound person specifically for the video production or was hired to run front-of-house sound for the show. It makes all the difference in the world as to how the responsibilities for what would be divided up.

By the way, a board feed per se does not guarantee good sound. A FOH mix is designed to sound right to the audience but will not necessarily optimum for recording. For example, it's not unusual for a drumkit not even to be mic'ed at all. It carries well to the audience without amplification but in your recording you will be depending on its bleed into the stage mics which may not sound very good at all.

If I could speak for Garrett, a "10 channel firewire" would be an audio interface with 10 inputs, allowing you to record up to 10 separate tracks at once on a laptop (with appropriate recording software, of course).

Trew Audio, B&H PHoto, Full Compass, Location Sound, Coffey Sound, FilmTools, Markertek are all good sources of cables and other gear.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 12:19 PM   #20
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Steve I totally agree with you that a board feed is not necessarily the ideal sound for video mix. If I have the time and the sound guy is willing to do it I try to get sub mixes or sends from each channel, pre-fader, eq, etc. One thing I learned the hard way (makes sense though) is that the sound engineer mixes and eq's for the venue and that does not necessary sound good for your video. Sometimes all I get that's usable from the board is the sound track and the MC's mic and I have to rely on my other equipment for the rest of the sound.

All of the suppliers Steve mentioned are good suppliers. I also like the Guitar Center primarily because they are local for me and I get coupons from them that give me upwards of 40% savings. That's how I usually acquire needed equipment. Wait for a sale and then use a coupon.

As far as looking for cables I'd recommend not go go cheap. It's not that a more expensive cable will necessarily sound better, but since you will be using these on location they will take some abuse. Better cables are made for such use and also have better shielding. Of course Monster Cable is a huge name but also Mogami, and for a good not too expensive cable I like Pro Co.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 12:21 PM   #21
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John,

Everyone here is right in telling you it was your responsibility. You say:

"But without the issue being discussed prior to the event, I still believe the situation to be considered "sticky." The problem wasn't getting audio to tape, but getting GOOD audio to tape."

It seems you are still trying to avoid responsibility by saying there should have been a production meeting prior to the event. Well guess whose responsibility having that meeting was - that's right, yours. When you quoted the job it was your responsibility to know what it would take to produce the DVD you were expected to deliver and to either own or arrange for anything necessary to produce that DVD. As others have pointed out, the house sound guy's job is to provide sound for the house. If he/she can provide sound to you, that's great, but it's not their responsibility unless it has been arranged in advance. Since they were not on your payroll, they really have no responsibility to you. Most sound folks will be happy to provide a feed if they have one available, but it's your responsibility to have the cables, adapters, knowledge, etc. to make it work with your gear.

You also say:

"That's the thing...I didn't do the hiring. Another great reason why a general meeting would have been beneficial. See, I told you it was sticky!"

First of all, he was being facetious about you doing the hiring. So it's not sticky at all. As the producer, it's your job.

Hey, we've all been there in one way or another over the years. Sounds like you have learned a valuable lesson.

Have fun!

Rob
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Old June 29th, 2009, 03:20 PM   #22
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As somebody who regularly does both of these jobs, I'm amazed by all this. When mixing live sound, I've never had any video people ask me for audio from the board, and then ask for cable too! The thing that always worries me is that for the guy mixing the sound, he's mixing for the room, and sometimes compromises get made that nobody might notice live, but having it recorded would be not so nice. I'm thinking about when I've pushed an instrument that was weak, and after a minute or two discovered that the mic I'd set out for the acoustic guitar is still where I left it, and the player is trying to use his vocal mic instead - hence why my fader prodding didn't bring up the level much. Add these kind of things together with just the general balancing and its very easy to see why sometimes the vidiots (what us Brits call the video people behind their backs) sometimes get all angry because their level went up or down, or doesn't have the lead guitar in it - because the musician had upped the volume from soundcheck and I had too much of it even with the fader down. I don't have the time (or inclination) to don headphones and check what the video is getting. I can see leds flashing on the output they are using - that's as good as it gets. I'm always amazed they let me, a complete stranger provide a feed. Hopefully it's ok, but I have no way of knowing.

When I'm on a camera job, then if I can get a feed from the house system, great - but I never rely on it. I'll allways take room sound onto the other channel and then balance the two together in post. As for stereo? If the job needs stereo, then I leave a MD recorder at the mix position and get them to record onto that, and sync it up later.

Where a client wants good quality video sound, then I take in a large rack and take a direct feed from each desk channel, record everything and then mix it myself.

When I go to do a job cold, then I have 100m of xlr on a drum, lots of shorter lengths, and enough kit for every eventuality - including an IEM transmitter that can take the mixer output and send it to on camera receivers. I've built up a pile of kit over the years and rarely get flumoxed on a job. The people who walk in with a camera and tripod and nothing else get short shift from me if they then demand (not ask nicely) for me to do extra work for them. Like want to do sound checks just as I finish 8 hours work and want food. Not my fault they arrived with only half an hour before we start! And they do!
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Old June 29th, 2009, 05:15 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by John Stakes View Post
Point well taken. Will this still give me stereo output though?

<snip>
JS
I've yet to find a venue that does sound reinforcement in stereo. There's good technical reasons for this. You could split the feed(s) from the desk but don't be surprised if what you get is the same thing on both channels. To get around this I always grab any stereo sources such as CDs that were used during the event and drop them into my edit.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 06:36 PM   #24
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I also like the Guitar Center primarily because they are local for me and I get coupons from them that give me upwards of 40% savings.
That's where I got this bad boy. Lifetime warranty is nice...and I can tell it is a quality cable, another reason why it's not so bad...just timing could have been better. Yes, the sales are nice!!

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Originally Posted by Rob Neidig View Post
It seems you are still trying to avoid responsibility by saying there should have been a production meeting prior to the event. Well guess whose responsibility having that meeting was - that's right, yours. When you quoted the job it was your responsibility to know what it would take to produce the DVD
I agree, I'm not trying to avoid responsibility at all. I was simply saying that if we had the meeting (that I should have called for) then I would not be in this...yes I'll say it, sticky situation!

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Hey, we've all been there in one way or another over the years. Sounds like you have learned a valuable lesson.

Have fun!

Rob
Learning can be the most fun part about it. You really find out what you are cable of when in a crunch! (ie. spending $100+ without a flinch, or being able to seamlessly lace the HD footage from one tape and the SD footage (that was supposed to be HD) from another tape to make a great music video!)

JS
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Old June 29th, 2009, 06:40 PM   #25
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The thing that always worries me is that for the guy mixing the sound, he's mixing for the room, and sometimes compromises get made that nobody might notice live, but having it recorded would be not so nice...
Oh yes, I have been there. That's why I still monitor the audio and make any live adjustments needed.
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...sometimes the vidiots (what us Brits call the video people behind their backs) sometimes get all angry because their level went up or down...
Now Paul be nice! (I think I may use this term for the Videographers at the weddings when I'm hired for stills)..."exit evil thoughts."
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I don't have the time (or inclination) to don headphones and check what the video is getting. I can see leds flashing on the output they are using - that's as good as it gets. I'm always amazed they let me, a complete stranger provide a feed. Hopefully it's ok, but I have no way of knowing.
I'm sure if you were instructed, and paid to do it, that you would. And though a stranger, you are expected to be professional right? After all if your getting paid you probably know a little something.
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Where a client wants good quality video sound, then I take in a large rack and take a direct feed from each desk channel, record everything and then mix it myself.
I see where this would be useful. Could you please provide an example, like a brand/model# of equipment that would be used for this...Once again, I'm sure when the time comes, I will stumble upon it anyway.
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Not my fault they arrived with only half an hour before we start! And they do!
LOL well I certainly can't blame you for that. That goes back to being professional...you must arrive with enough time for anything to happen. I got to the shoot about 2 hours prior...which is why I had the time for my learning experience. Setup took only 10min!! But after buying cable, getting hooked up, getting levels...an hr of time got soaked up. THEN we made lighting adjustments in the venue...was ready to roll 3min before showtime. What a rush!!!

JS
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Old June 29th, 2009, 06:41 PM   #26
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I've yet to find a venue that does sound reinforcement in stereo. There's good technical reasons for this. You could split the feed(s) from the desk but don't be surprised if what you get is the same thing on both channels.
Interesting, just when I thought I knew something, I find out there is a whole other chunk of knowledge over the next hill, waiting to be soaked up. Fascinating!
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To get around this I always grab any stereo sources such as CDs...
This is what I do also, but more often then not there are no CDs available.

JS
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Old June 29th, 2009, 06:48 PM   #27
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"10 channel firewire" would be an audio interface with 10 inputs, allowing you to record up to 10 separate tracks at once on a laptop (with appropriate recording software, of course)
oh yeah, thanks for that Steve!

JS
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Old June 29th, 2009, 06:52 PM   #28
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That's the thing...I didn't do the hiring. Another great reason why a general meeting would have been beneficial. See, I told you it was sticky!
I think he's talking about the sound guy that you could have brought in as part of your video crew, not the sound guy running the house system.
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Old June 30th, 2009, 08:48 AM   #29
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I think he's talking about the sound guy that you could have brought in as part of your video crew, not the sound guy running the house system.
I see. Well yeah that makes sense. In any matter this was a great experience, and in the end it works out for everyone. Client was happy, I spent 106 bucks for Class A training, and I got a "free" cable with lifetime warranty ; )

Thanks to all that took the time to respond, I'm sure this thread will keep some others out of trouble.

JS
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Old June 30th, 2009, 09:05 AM   #30
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I've yet to find a venue that does sound reinforcement in stereo.
Just did my very first one EVER this weekend, shooting for a band that are friends of mine (we're doing a contra deal - don't worry, I'm getting paid-in-kind).

Thought I'd get two feeds of the same thing but nope, drum rolls carry from one ear to the other, guitar stage left is more prominent in my left headphone/speaker... And this was from a fairly sketchy bar in a rough neighbourhood. The soundguy owns and operates all his own gear and takes GREAT pride in his work.

ADDENDUM: Further to what PRJ says above, I show up with several cables, adaptors to take rca, 1/4" trs, 1/4" ts, 1/8", gender turnarounds and ground isolators/line unbalancers.

AND I've talked with the sound guy in advance AND had the band put an FOH board feed on the technical rider.

AND bring a medium condenser mic for room sound (in this case I didn't need it - band played quietly on stage so FOH mix had EVERYTHING in it. The advantage of working with guys in their 40's - we're all going deaf from years of playing and we don't NEED to see how loud Marshall's and AMpeg's will go onstage anymore...) so I CAN capture what the audience hears.
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