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Old May 30th, 2004, 07:23 AM   #1
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gl1 mic question

I'm putting together an audio kit, and have a question about a mic to replace the on board stereo canon. The two mikes that look interesting are the at 897, and the sennheiser me66. While they are called "short shotgun" mics, they seem fairly long for mounting on the gl1.
Anybody have any feedback on a good all purpose mic to mount on the gl1? ( i have a Beachteck box with xlr inputs).
Thanks
bruce s. yarock
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Old May 30th, 2004, 10:18 AM   #2
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You want a good all purpose mic...

Well, do not use a shotgun for shots where there are many people close to the camera. It won't work. You need a wider cardioid mic for that - or maybe a stereo mic (=two capsules=wider).

I have used a shotgun mic (that came with my Sony camcorder) and sometimes it is annoyingly narrow forcing me to pan each time the speaker changes. Not fun. With a shotgun you need distance. Won't work from ten feet.

Maybe you would like to have a modular set? One, where you can keep one mic body and change the capsule to match the situation?

Both AKG and Sennheiser have modular mics that offer both cardioid (wide) and short and long shotgun (narrow) capsules. Audio-Technica has a modular series too, but it does not include shotguns. You need to get them separately. The AT897 is a good one for camcorder mounting, though, because it relatively short and because it doesn't record too much backwards... (I haven't used it - I just looked at the specs)

These were all mono mics.

If you want a good stereo mic then be prepared to burn a lot of money. I have been looking for one for some time. The AT825 is said to be pretty decent (review: emusician.com) and affordable. Shure VP88 is twice the price. And then you have many expensive ($1k - $4k) stereo mics.

Schoeps is a collectors dream come true - but you'll need an unlimited budget :( and something a little better than BeachTek I suspect... (again, I do not know, but the price difference...)

An all purpose mic, if such a thing exists, should probably be able to record

1) a specific sound from a distance while rejecting "noise" coming from the sides

-> A shotgun mic or a hypercardioid mic

2) sounds coming from a wide angle so that close-up/wideangle shots of groups of people would be possible.

-> A cardioid or wide cardioid or omni mic
-> Even a stereo mic would do the job

3) anything but the camera

-> let's forget the omnidirectional mic, right?

When we put all this together we get a contradiction. A stereo shotgun mic could be a partial solution: The shotgun is good for isolation of a specific sound while the figure of eight (side) capsule records ambience (sides). It's both narrow and wide. You can adjust it on computer. It won't give you realistic accurate localization of sounds in space. They come more or less from the front or from the sides, they say. You'll have to ask someone who has actually used a mid-side stereo shotgun mic, such as the AT835. A cardioid mid-side stereo mic like the shure has offers better localization but it also does not replace a shotgun.
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Old May 30th, 2004, 10:35 AM   #3
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Oops, you allready have a stereo mic on your Canon... You could use it for wide angle shots...

Do you want a better quality stereo mic or just a narrower mic (like a mono shotgun)?
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Old May 30th, 2004, 11:41 AM   #4
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Ralf-
Thanks a lot for the info.
you said
<Both AKG and Sennheiser have modular mics that offer both cardioid (wide) and short and long shotgun (narrow) capsules. Audio-Technica has a modular series too, but it does not include shotguns. You need to get them separately. The AT897 is a good one for camcorder mounting, though, because it relatively short and because it doesn't record too much backwards... (I haven't used it - I just looked at the specs)>

I agree that i would be better off with a modular kit that allowed me to use either cardiod or short shot gun. do you have any info on which kit ( model,etc.)?
I also have a sony stereo mic (ecm-ms 957) that I've used for live stereo music recording, and it sounds pretty good. I guess I could also mount that on the camera for specific situations.( My background is in music production, song writing,etc.)
Maybe you can answer a related question. I'm also planing on getting a wireless lav kit. One that also has the plug in adaptor for using a wired mike, to be able to use it as wireless ( the senheiser g2 has this plug in adaptor.) This mike would be used for interview, or handed back and forth between the camera op and the interviewee. Could i use one of the mics from the modular kit for this purpose ( that way not having to get an additional mic)?

Thanks again
Bruce s. yarock
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Old May 30th, 2004, 05:09 PM   #5
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Where would you be recording? Inside or out? Are you recording dialogue or ambience? To require both is a contradiction.

If you're working indoors a wide cardoid or cardoid will work for wider shots but your inviting a lot more "off axis pollution". A hypercardoid has a tighter pattern and better off axis rejection and is great for indoors as well. Some of the better"modular sytems" are the AKG blue line and the AT 4051/4053. the AT is thought to be one of the better hypers south of the $1000 range . The4051a cardoid is $400 at B&H and a hypercardoid capsule is another $196 (4053a)

Microphones of this type are designed to deliver clean and uncluttered audio. If your after the dialog and the ambience than your better off staying with your on camera mic

The Sanken CS1 is a nice indoor short shotgun with a wider pattern than most. It has superior side and rear rejection. the absnece of a rear lobe is unique in a shotgun microphone.

One of the most reasonable setups for indoor use is the oktava mco12 3 capsule set. For $300 you can buy a mic preamp, a 10 db pad and an Omni, cardoid and hypercardoid capsule.

The most complete setup is the AKG. I've included a link below. i also have a brief clip of the CK93 hypercardoid

Some of these mics can be heard at www.dvfreelancer.com
I have some new AKG and Sanken clips that I could email you as well.

http://www.audio-technica.com/using/mphones/guide/index.html

http://www.audio-technica.com/prodpro/profiles/AT4053a.html

http://www.sanken-mic.com/english/index.html

http://www.akg.com/mediendatenbank/psdoc/mediafile/15/import3fa2694b9b283.pdf

Finally, for some really good reading Jay Rose's discourse on mic patterns and The Schoeps philosophy on patterns and mic usage. Schoeps and Neumann wrote the book on modern microphones

http://www.schoeps.de/E/select-guideline.html

http://www.dv.com/features/features_item.jhtml?LookupId=/xml/feature/2003/rose0203
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Old May 31st, 2004, 09:10 AM   #6
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Brian,
Thanks for all the info and links. I spent a couple of hours this am going through everything. I think I'll definately go with some kind of combo package. But i'm unclear about a couple of issues.
1-A good bit of what I'll do will be a one man set up, so I need everything on the camera.How do I handle the power issue ( most of these mics require phantom power)?
2-I have a beachtek box with two xlr inputs right now.Does any ome make a similar camera mounted adaptor with phantom power?
3-I found the web page for octave. Can you reccomend anyone who carries the line?
Again, thanks for the wealth of info.
Bruce s. Yarock
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Old May 31st, 2004, 10:31 AM   #7
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The Beach Tec DXA-6 has phantom power and the DXA-8 has phantom power, a reamp with limiters. for more info go to
http://www.dvfreelancer.com/articles/beachtekDXA-8.html

For Oktava try the sound room

http://sound-room.com/customer/home.php?cat=2

You can buy a cardoid single from guirtar centers but the QG is sinmetimes questionable. make sur it works brfore you leave.

There are some Oktava sound samples at the next link

http://www.dvfreelancer.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=12
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