Schoeps MK41 vs Sennheiser MKH-416

Ray Sigmond · February 24th, 2005, 01:49 AM

Seems like I need to get a boom to do it right. One of the drawbacks of using it as a mounted mic is that you have to keep the camera so close to the subject. When trying to get better depth of field with the camera moving back futher from the subject defeats the benefit of the mic when mounted.

Ty Ford · February 24th, 2005, 08:30 AM

Bingo! We Have A WINNER!

:)

Ty Ford

Matt Gettemeier · February 24th, 2005, 08:36 AM

Find a place to hide the mic... overhead or somewhere in the shot where you can get adequate coverage... then get a 50' xlr. You may even want a cardioid to cover a larger area... and finally explain to your "crew" what is going on and put an "x" or some other mark at the dead center of the sweet spot... Find a subtle way to centralize the action around the mic's pick-up. Obviously in a dynamic situation like this people will move in and out of the sweet spot a little... that's why I suggest a larger sweet spot (cardioid or carefully positioned hyper) and people who understand that we're making a video and that you're not just there catching an ordinary day. With a martial arts presentation they should begin sparring from the same general area anyway.

Ray Sigmond · February 24th, 2005, 09:24 AM

Matt I am going to take your suggestion and get the K-Tek Avalon Aluminum Pole with coiled cable

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=326895&is=REG

and the K-Tek K-SSM Shock Mount

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=323324&is=REG

Matt Gettemeier · February 24th, 2005, 03:06 PM

There's another conversation here that the rest of the readers weren't a part of...

I think (for the money) that you can't beat those two choices in boom pole and shock mount. That K-Tek pole is about 8 or so ounces lighter then the previous value leader, the lightwave gt-10c... and I even like the look of the K-Tek better. As for the shock mount, make sure the guys at B&H know to give you the SOFT bands for it. Trew knows about that and hopefully B&H is up on the "soft instead of hard" option.

So anyway, keep us posted... The reason I made the suggestions that I did is 'cause they are solid "first steps" that you won't outgrow... you'll just add to these items later...

Jacques Mersereau · February 26th, 2005, 09:20 AM

<<<Have any of you guys found it necessary or tested the MK41 with the Cut 1 Filter which is usually bundled in the CMC641-C set? And if so under would conditions did you find that the Cut 1 filter was needed?>>>

As Ty said you can get by without out it as long as you have
other options for rolling off low end, however since you're
spending the big bucks, I would suggest it because it has a variable
roll off and being active the cut 1 provides an additional 3 db of gain.

I have both the 416 and MK41 and am the guy who got Matt and Bryan
turned onto these mics. I LOVE the MK41, but it's draw back is that
it is far more susceptible to humidity than the MKH-416. In high humidity
conditions the MK41 will pop or 'motor boat' every now and then. I have
not had this issue with the 416. I also have a Neumann USM69i stereo mic.
I have found that the MK41 blends very well when setting up a faux 5.1
surround mic'ing as the middle channel, whereas the 416 doesn't.

Ty Ford · February 26th, 2005, 12:43 PM

Keeping the mk41 contacts clean has prevented the noise for me. Sometimes all it takes is partially unscrewing and then tightening the capsule to break through the microspcopic schmutz on the contacts.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Jacques Mersereau · February 26th, 2005, 02:46 PM

Not the case here Ty. Brand new mic. Others with tons of hours on
schoeps have reported the same.

Ty Ford · February 26th, 2005, 06:08 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jacques Mersereau : Not the case here Ty. Brand new mic. Others with tons of hours on
schoeps have reported the same. -->>>

Even new mics can escape with schmutz on the contacts, but it's rare.

I would first clean the contacts of both the mic and the capsule with alcohol and a no-lint swab from beneath so the excess alcohol would not drip into the works.

I have 2 cmc641 and have used them out in the (light) rain and high humidity without ever having a problem.

Again, the problem is often bad contact between the body and capsule.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Jacques Mersereau · February 26th, 2005, 07:08 PM

Hey Ty,

My MK41 has performed perfectly in every other condition. The only
time I have gotten pops is when collecting audio on marshes in the summer.
The contacts are all sparkling clean.

As I said, others who have used Schoeps repeatedly report the same thing under
similar high humidity conditions.

Joe Kras · March 2nd, 2005, 08:57 AM

"I am going to be shooting a martial arts instructional series."

I think one of the key things is that the instructor or whoever is commisioning this understands that doing an instructional series is much different than just shooting him doing a demonstration. I have run into people who expect that they can shoot some handheld 1 chip video with little or no attention paid to sound or lighting, shoot it during a regular class without disrupting the class, and actually get people to pay money for a video.

Martial arts instruction is all about the little details. This means that each shot will have to be done multiple times (usually both in slow motion as well as real time) in order to adequately demonstrate various techniques. Many martial arts instructors think that you'll just come in and shoot during a regular class, or come in some off time and shoot two hours to get a one hour video. They need to understand that at least a 10:1 shooting ratio will be needed, in order to capture different angles, close ups of hand and foot postions, need for re-takes, etc.

You can lav the instructor doing the instruction while he demonstrates a technique 1/4 or 1/2 speed without fear of him destroying your mic. Then take the lav off and have him repeat it full speed. If the space is reasonably well treated (moving blankets on the walls) then shooting the full speed demo with a shotgun should be OK.

I personally would boom the instructor up close while he was giving the instruction in slow speed, then back up for the full speed part. I would shoot multiple angles/close ups both slow speed and full speed. Add some stand up or office interview stuff in the beginning going over concepts and at the end reinforcing points covered in the video, add some music and a flashy demo shot outside for the opening, and you're done!

Regards,

Joe Kras
St. Louis, MO

p.s. If you can't get them to wear blue uniforms, at least get them to dye their white ones light grey.

Mark Sasahara · March 3rd, 2005, 10:19 AM

<<<-- Even new mics can escape with schmutz on the contacts, but it's rare.

I would first clean the contacts of both the mic and the capsule with alcohol and a no-lint swab from beneath so the excess alcohol would not drip into the works. -->>>

My best friend, who is an audiophile turned me on to DeoxIT Power Booster Pen (D100P), made by Caig Laboratories. Formerly known as Cramolin, DeoxIT has the consistency of oil.

DeoxIT Power Booster Pen also improves conductivity. It's really great. It's a pen form factor, so you "write" on the contacts first, the fiber tip is good for scrubbing the contacts. Use it sparingly. It does have a tendency to flow, so be careful. Let it sit for a few moments and then rub it off with a lintless cloth, or wipe. You may see some depostis on the wipe when you rub off the DeoxIT. That's the grime and oxidation.

DeoxIT page
http://shopping.netledger.com/s.nl/c...LOlQzNp65In0__

Caig makes a whole bunch of cleaners and lubricants.
http://www.caig.com/

I used this on my cameras and found a significant improvement in the NiCad's performance in cold weather, just by cleaning both sets of contacts, battery and camera.

I have used this on corroded contacts and found that it cleaned them quite well. Heavily pitted contacts were more problematic, but it cleans the crap off nicely.

Bryan Beasleigh · March 5th, 2005, 04:23 PM

There have been some negative comments made about the use of cranolin or similar products. Several threads on RAMPS and RAP have concluded that cleaning with denatured alcohol is the way to go.

Mark Sasahara · March 5th, 2005, 09:51 PM

Oh, okay, it may be different for audio, but for straight up electrical contacts I have never had a problem with Cramolin. Perhaps the replacement, DeoxIT, has fixed the problems associated with Cramolin?

I'm a film, video and lighting guy, so I defer to your expertise. I was just going by my own personal experience with battery and electrical contacts.

Bryan, thanks for the info on the mikes, your voice sounds a lot like a friend of mine's, it freaked me out for a moment because he's an audio guy too.

February 24th, 2005, 08:30 AM	#17
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	Bingo! We Have A WINNER! :) Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

February 26th, 2005, 09:20 AM	#21
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	<<<Have any of you guys found it necessary or tested the MK41 with the Cut 1 Filter which is usually bundled in the CMC641-C set? And if so under would conditions did you find that the Cut 1 filter was needed?>>> As Ty said you can get by without out it as long as you have other options for rolling off low end, however since you're spending the big bucks, I would suggest it because it has a variable roll off and being active the cut 1 provides an additional 3 db of gain. I have both the 416 and MK41 and am the guy who got Matt and Bryan turned onto these mics. I LOVE the MK41, but it's draw back is that it is far more susceptible to humidity than the MKH-416. In high humidity conditions the MK41 will pop or 'motor boat' every now and then. I have not had this issue with the 416. I also have a Neumann USM69i stereo mic. I have found that the MK41 blends very well when setting up a faux 5.1 surround mic'ing as the middle channel, whereas the 416 doesn't. __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

February 26th, 2005, 12:43 PM	#22
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	Keeping the mk41 contacts clean has prevented the noise for me. Sometimes all it takes is partially unscrewing and then tightening the capsule to break through the microspcopic schmutz on the contacts. Regards, Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

February 26th, 2005, 02:46 PM	#23
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	Not the case here Ty. Brand new mic. Others with tons of hours on schoeps have reported the same. __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

February 26th, 2005, 06:08 PM	#24
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	<<<-- Originally posted by Jacques Mersereau : Not the case here Ty. Brand new mic. Others with tons of hours on schoeps have reported the same. -->>> Even new mics can escape with schmutz on the contacts, but it's rare. I would first clean the contacts of both the mic and the capsule with alcohol and a no-lint swab from beneath so the excess alcohol would not drip into the works. I have 2 cmc641 and have used them out in the (light) rain and high humidity without ever having a problem. Again, the problem is often bad contact between the body and capsule. Regards, Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

February 24th, 2005, 01:49 AM	#16
Ray Sigmond Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Edison, NJ Posts: 119	Seems like I need to get a boom to do it right. One of the drawbacks of using it as a mounted mic is that you have to keep the camera so close to the subject. When trying to get better depth of field with the camera moving back futher from the subject defeats the benefit of the mic when mounted.

February 24th, 2005, 08:36 AM	#18
Matt Gettemeier Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: St. Louis, Missouri Posts: 936	Find a place to hide the mic... overhead or somewhere in the shot where you can get adequate coverage... then get a 50' xlr. You may even want a cardioid to cover a larger area... and finally explain to your "crew" what is going on and put an "x" or some other mark at the dead center of the sweet spot... Find a subtle way to centralize the action around the mic's pick-up. Obviously in a dynamic situation like this people will move in and out of the sweet spot a little... that's why I suggest a larger sweet spot (cardioid or carefully positioned hyper) and people who understand that we're making a video and that you're not just there catching an ordinary day. With a martial arts presentation they should begin sparring from the same general area anyway.

February 24th, 2005, 09:24 AM	#19
Ray Sigmond Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Edison, NJ Posts: 119	Matt I am going to take your suggestion and get the K-Tek Avalon Aluminum Pole with coiled cable http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=326895&is=REG and the K-Tek K-SSM Shock Mount http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=323324&is=REG

February 24th, 2005, 03:06 PM	#20
Matt Gettemeier Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: St. Louis, Missouri Posts: 936	There's another conversation here that the rest of the readers weren't a part of... I think (for the money) that you can't beat those two choices in boom pole and shock mount. That K-Tek pole is about 8 or so ounces lighter then the previous value leader, the lightwave gt-10c... and I even like the look of the K-Tek better. As for the shock mount, make sure the guys at B&H know to give you the SOFT bands for it. Trew knows about that and hopefully B&H is up on the "soft instead of hard" option. So anyway, keep us posted... The reason I made the suggestions that I did is 'cause they are solid "first steps" that you won't outgrow... you'll just add to these items later...

February 26th, 2005, 07:08 PM	#25
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	Hey Ty, My MK41 has performed perfectly in every other condition. The only time I have gotten pops is when collecting audio on marshes in the summer. The contacts are all sparkling clean. As I said, others who have used Schoeps repeatedly report the same thing under similar high humidity conditions. __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

March 2nd, 2005, 08:57 AM	#26
Joe Kras Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 54	"I am going to be shooting a martial arts instructional series." I think one of the key things is that the instructor or whoever is commisioning this understands that doing an instructional series is much different than just shooting him doing a demonstration. I have run into people who expect that they can shoot some handheld 1 chip video with little or no attention paid to sound or lighting, shoot it during a regular class without disrupting the class, and actually get people to pay money for a video. Martial arts instruction is all about the little details. This means that each shot will have to be done multiple times (usually both in slow motion as well as real time) in order to adequately demonstrate various techniques. Many martial arts instructors think that you'll just come in and shoot during a regular class, or come in some off time and shoot two hours to get a one hour video. They need to understand that at least a 10:1 shooting ratio will be needed, in order to capture different angles, close ups of hand and foot postions, need for re-takes, etc. You can lav the instructor doing the instruction while he demonstrates a technique 1/4 or 1/2 speed without fear of him destroying your mic. Then take the lav off and have him repeat it full speed. If the space is reasonably well treated (moving blankets on the walls) then shooting the full speed demo with a shotgun should be OK. I personally would boom the instructor up close while he was giving the instruction in slow speed, then back up for the full speed part. I would shoot multiple angles/close ups both slow speed and full speed. Add some stand up or office interview stuff in the beginning going over concepts and at the end reinforcing points covered in the video, add some music and a flashy demo shot outside for the opening, and you're done! Regards, Joe Kras St. Louis, MO p.s. If you can't get them to wear blue uniforms, at least get them to dye their white ones light grey.

March 3rd, 2005, 10:19 AM	#27
Mark Sasahara Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: NYC Posts: 649	<<<-- Even new mics can escape with schmutz on the contacts, but it's rare. I would first clean the contacts of both the mic and the capsule with alcohol and a no-lint swab from beneath so the excess alcohol would not drip into the works. -->>> My best friend, who is an audiophile turned me on to DeoxIT Power Booster Pen (D100P), made by Caig Laboratories. Formerly known as Cramolin, DeoxIT has the consistency of oil. DeoxIT Power Booster Pen also improves conductivity. It's really great. It's a pen form factor, so you "write" on the contacts first, the fiber tip is good for scrubbing the contacts. Use it sparingly. It does have a tendency to flow, so be careful. Let it sit for a few moments and then rub it off with a lintless cloth, or wipe. You may see some depostis on the wipe when you rub off the DeoxIT. That's the grime and oxidation. DeoxIT page http://shopping.netledger.com/s.nl/c...LOlQzNp65In0__ Caig makes a whole bunch of cleaners and lubricants. http://www.caig.com/ I used this on my cameras and found a significant improvement in the NiCad's performance in cold weather, just by cleaning both sets of contacts, battery and camera. I have used this on corroded contacts and found that it cleaned them quite well. Heavily pitted contacts were more problematic, but it cleans the crap off nicely. __________________ Mark Sasahara Director of Photography

March 5th, 2005, 04:23 PM	#28
Bryan Beasleigh Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,922	There have been some negative comments made about the use of cranolin or similar products. Several threads on RAMPS and RAP have concluded that cleaning with denatured alcohol is the way to go. __________________ Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ".......holy smokin rubber lips...what a ride!"

March 5th, 2005, 09:51 PM	#29
Mark Sasahara Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: NYC Posts: 649	Oh, okay, it may be different for audio, but for straight up electrical contacts I have never had a problem with Cramolin. Perhaps the replacement, DeoxIT, has fixed the problems associated with Cramolin? I'm a film, video and lighting guy, so I defer to your expertise. I was just going by my own personal experience with battery and electrical contacts. Bryan, thanks for the info on the mikes, your voice sounds a lot like a friend of mine's, it freaked me out for a moment because he's an audio guy too. __________________ Mark Sasahara Director of Photography