Two Shotgun mics or just one? - Page 2 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > All Things Audio

All Things Audio
Everything Audio, from acquisition to postproduction.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 27th, 2009, 08:23 PM   #16
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 904
If you are familiar with setting up the audio on the camera, I'd experiment with setting ONE channel fairly hot, signal wise, and the other more medium. That way you have TWO signals to play with level wise. In the end we'll select the best one, but it adds to your capabilities during editing. (I can give you more detail but suspect we're fine with this 30,000 foot view right now).
Chris Swanberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 27th, 2009, 08:41 PM   #17
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Ravenna, OH
Posts: 198
Not too familiar so I'm not sure how to set one channel more hot?

BTW, the 30,000 foot cable - OK 150 foot is not an option :) don't think they are going to rent me a cable that long in my budget :( I like the way you think though and this would be great if possible - but alas we are going to be ~15 feet apart.

If I can be so bold as to ask, the manual for my camera is available at ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasoni...-HMC150_OI.pdf

if you can suggest how to set one channel more hot?
Thomas Moore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 27th, 2009, 08:46 PM   #18
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 904
XLR cable is relatively cheap and commonplace, and long cables are not unusual or odd. Heck you can BUY a 50 foot cable of an inexpensive brand for as little a $15. You might be surprised how cheap XLR cabling is to rent...(in other words it would likely be the least expensive thing on the rental menu) but anyway....

I'll look at the manual, but hope someone familiar with that camera might chime in and offer you a quick and dirty.... if not I'll see if I can assist.
Chris Swanberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 27th, 2009, 09:04 PM   #19
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 904
Ok here's what I get....by reading the manual.

First, plug the XLR cable to the mic into Input 2. Set CH1 and CH2 to Input 2.

Now you have fed the mic feed into both channels.

Turn the mic power switch on for ch 2.

Now you are feeding the mic 48v power which it needs to operate.

You won't have a mixer or tone generator, so during periods when the sound levels seem to be like you expect during halftime, watch the meters.... using the sound audio control knobs, set channel 1 so that it "almost touches" the right hand side of the meter readout (0 db), set channel 2 so that it just touches the vertical line (-12 db) during those same stretches using the same sounds - (which I hope will be constant enough to make this seat of the pants setting up workable....) then watching channel 2 to make sure the levels are approximately the same as when you were setting up, back channel one off by a three dotted lines (looking at the meters in the manual) during the same loud sounds. (This is a HOT setup. If you have a sidelines mic you could back things down a dotted line or 2)

Channel one will be the hot channel, and channel 2 will give you some breathing room. In digital, if you overmodulate, you are a cooked goose. So channel 1 gives you a hot signal, and SHOULD the overmodulation occur,channel 2 can save the day.

Watch your level meters during the show. So long as 2 isn't exceeding 0 DB you should be ok.

Others may have better suggestions. Your mileage may vary.
Chris Swanberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 27th, 2009, 11:20 PM   #20
New Boot
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 24
Audio

If the audio is so important to this project and the cabling is a challenge, why not consider a dedicated audio recorder?
Tom Weistar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 27th, 2009, 11:41 PM   #21
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 904
I suspect cabling is not really the issue... renting cable is easier than renting a recorder. For that matter wireless Xmit/Rcvr may be too. But that is certainly one option worthy of consideration.
Chris Swanberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2009, 04:37 AM   #22
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Ravenna, OH
Posts: 198
Thanks Chris I will give that a try! So by having this channel running hot what benefits will this give me in post?

And really dumb question... run the input as "Mic" correct, and -50? < edited for stupidity

Should I leave AGC and ALC on?

The cable may be cheap but the real challenge is I don't know the location well enough to know if they will let me run cables accross the field or even let me down on the field. I will find out how much it will cost to get a longer cable and if it is within budget I will get one as well so in case I can deploy it I'll have it with me.

Last edited by Thomas Moore; October 28th, 2009 at 05:09 AM.
Thomas Moore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2009, 05:36 AM   #23
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Moore View Post
Thanks again I stopped by my local music store who rents gear. They recommended a AKG414 with a 7 foot boom pole. Thought is to run it to both channels so I have both although mono.

I'm wondering your thoughts on this setup and should I use the Wide cartoid settings or the normal. In post can I invert one of the tracks to get a
more stereo sound?
Do NOT record dual mono and then invert one channel. It will NOT give you a stereo sound, instead it can introduce all sorts of phase cancellation problems. When listened to in stereo, the mixing of the signals in the air can cause comb filtering effects and if the two channels are collapsed to mono - as happens very frequently when video is played back on a mono TV or during cable broadcast - they will cancel each other out and you'll get silence. Not too long ago I was watching a show on National Geographic channel ("Things That Move" railroad episode) where this happened - can't imagine whoever cleared it through QC kept their job! - where all the sound except for the FX was missing from the broadcast for what I suspect was that exact reason.

You record dual mono with one channel hotter than the other to give you a backup. Normally you would use just the higher level channel, recoded in mono and then sent to both left and right during post production. But if a sudden extra loud sound drives that higher level recording into distortion, you have the undistorted lower level one to fall back on.

I'm not very comfortable with the music store's advice on the AKG414. First of all, it's a side-address, large diaphram mic, more at home in the recording studio than it is in the field. As a side address, rather than aiming it like a flashlight it's held more like a lantern, positioned at 90 degrees across the axis from the sound source with the front side of the mic facing the sound. Hard to do accurately when it's out on the end of a fishpole boom. The large mic and its shockmount are going to be awfully heavy - that's a lot of mass to have out on the end of a 7 or 10 foot lever arm and it's going to be very cumbersome to handle. The large diaphram is going to be sensitive to wind and while AKG makes a foam windsock that fits on it, I've never seen a blimp that would hold one.
__________________
Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!

Last edited by Steve House; October 28th, 2009 at 06:25 AM.
Steve House is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2009, 05:52 AM   #24
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Ravenna, OH
Posts: 198
Thanks Steve, what about the Wide Cartoid thought?

And if you don't think that is a good choice, what should I ask them for?

If pointing it is so important should I instead use my 5 foot stand?
Thomas Moore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2009, 06:31 AM   #25
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Swanberg View Post
Blimp - let's start in order. You have the naked mic. Next up is the naked mic and a foam cover (ok in VERY light wind up to a couple mph), the naked mic, a foam cover AND a fuzzie or deadcat - same thing, (good up to maybe 5-7 mph depending) and then the enclosure the mic goes inside - the "blimp", looks like a minature Hindenburg, and these almost always have a deadcat placed on them (good up to several times the wind of the best foam cover and deadcat combo. You can even put the foam cover on the mic and place it in a blimp, and if you tape the mic barrel as described, ought to be fine in pretty stiff winds... depending on blimp orientation vis a vis the passing wind).

Blimps often come with an attachable handholding stub... that a person can hang on to and aim the blimp with, sans boom pole. (Still thinking sideline help here).
'Scuse me for butting in with a correction, but the foam windscreen should come off when the mic goes into a blimp. The wind protection comes from the blimp's enclosing a cushion of still air surrounding the mic, trapping air between the mic and the blimp's basket, and filling that cushion with foam instead of air can actually reduce the wind protection the enclosure provides.
__________________
Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!
Steve House is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2009, 07:08 AM   #26
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,742
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Moore View Post
Thanks Steve, what about the Wide Cartoid thought?

And if you don't think that is a good choice, what should I ask them for?

If pointing it is so important should I instead use my 5 foot stand?
The wide cardioid, cardioid, or hypercardioid patterns are more a matter of how broad an angle the desired sound source extends over in front of the mic - it's not that one is better than the other but rather a matter what you want to get into the most sensitive pickup zone and what you want to exclude from it. If you were micing an entire orchestra from the conductor's podium where the group is spread out around a 180 degree arc in front of the mic, wide cardioid might be a good choice. If you were micing an individual trombone in that orchestra, the hyper would be the way to go in order to minimize the bleed from the other instruments in the group. So for your band, it gets complicated to give advice sight unseen. How big a group is it? How far away are they? (In other words, from the mic position, how broad an angle will they cover?) Will they be marching around for the half-time show or performing standing in place?

IMHO, a 5 foot stand is too short. I'd want to get the mic up into the air a bit more so it better "sees" the instruments in the back of the group over the heads of the people in the front. But I'd put it on a tall stand with an extension arm rather than a handheld fishpole boom. Perhaps I misread your intentions - when you said you were getting a boom, which were you referring to?

Aim is important because cardioid and wide cardioid (and hyper too) are directional patterns. Cardioid = "heart shaped" and that's essentially what they look like - the pickup is a hemispherical or teardrop shape in one direction with very little response on the other. You need to make sure the sensitive side is toward the source. Mics also fall into side-address and end-address categories, depending on whether the direction of their pickup is along the long axis of the mic or at 90 degrees to it. The mics you see singers and comics holding in their hands on stage are end-address. The desk mics you see Carson, Letterman, or Howard Stern using are side-address, as are many of the vocal mics you see in recording studios. The 414 is a side-address vocal and instrumental, stage and studio mic. I just don't know how well it'll work out used outdoors like you're planning.
__________________
Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!

Last edited by Steve House; October 28th, 2009 at 07:45 AM.
Steve House is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2009, 08:07 AM   #27
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Ravenna, OH
Posts: 198
The music store recommended a 7 foot boom pole that would be held...

The more I look at this and read responses the more scarier this option becomes as you state pointing the mic is going to be crucial for good sound pickup. The tallest stand I have is 5 foot with a extension arm, but I'm assuming I can rent a taller one instead of the hand held boom which should be better I am assuming?

Should I be asking for a different type of mic?

And yea I'm flying a little blind here as I don't know if they'll be moving around or not so I guess I'll have to adapt.

On a positive note, I just left message for the Athletic director asking for sideline access so let's hope he lets me...
Thomas Moore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2009, 12:43 PM   #28
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Ravenna, OH
Posts: 198
\0/ Yay... they are going to let me be on the side lines!!

Any recommendation changes?
Thomas Moore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2009, 01:32 PM   #29
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,742
I'd be happier with one of the stereo mics I linked to in a previous message, about 8 feet in the air or a little more and aimed across the field along the 50 yard line while the band is performing. To be honest, anything you do without the chance to test it before hand is going to be a crapshoot - there are just so many variables. A single mic position outdoors in an echo'y stadium is not the best way to record a band to begin with so CD quality sound is just not going to be in the cards. The 414 set to wide and held aloft might work out okay as long as you can keep its diaphram pointed in the right direction (as long as the wind is calm), and then again it might be a total dud.

The band is bound to be doing a run-through between now and the show, see if you can eavesdrop
__________________
Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!
Steve House is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2009, 05:45 PM   #30
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Ravenna, OH
Posts: 198
Checked with the store, they don't have any Stereo mics to rent so looks like this is the best I'm going to get.

Thanks for all the help up to this point, when I edit the video I'll post some up so you can at least see how it came out :)

Here's hoping for a)little to no wind, b)no rain - which this is a chance of ;(
Thomas Moore is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > All Things Audio

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:17 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network