PCM-D50 with external condenser mics
 

Hi all.

I'm looking to replace my old mini disk with a solid-state field recorder.
I have spend many days reading through this forum and elsewhere, and have narrowed it down to the Sony PCM-D50 and the Zoom H4n.

I'm almost set on the Sony. While the Zoom is tempting for obvious reasons, ultimately the Sony's cleaner sound (as far as I can tell from reviews and samples I've come across) seems to me of more value, and it's still within my price range.

My main intended use for the recorder would be for environmental, voice and sound effects recordings. I would like to be able to use external mics in addition to the built in ones. I have heard quite a few samples of dynamic external mics, and it seems that the D50 actually sounds better than the Zoom, despite having an unbalanced mini mic plug.

However, I have not really come across enough examples of the D50 coupled with a battery-operated condenser. I have an audio technica 33a condenser (bought for recording guitar) which can operate on battery power. Also planning to buy a rode NTG-2 in the near future...

Can someone confirm if the D50 will sound as good (if not better) with a battery powered condenser compared with the Zoom H4n?
It will really help me finalize my decision.

Also, is there a benefit in using a "Low to High Impedance Matching Transformer" cable over a regular XLR-to-mini cable with the D50?
(like this one Pearstone | LMT100 - Low to High Impedance Matching | 8111240)

Many thanks in advance,
Jon.

Jon,
I have used the H4n for some time and was pretty unhappy with the noisy preamps, the obvious inability to record line-level signals plus some pretty heavy distortions when feeding unbalanced signals through the TRS inputs.
A few weeks ago I have switched to the Sony PCM-D50 and couldn't be happier. This unit is in a completely different class.

You were asking about condenser mics. I have been using the PCM-D50 with my Rode NT4 with very good results. See here for a sample: Aufnahmetechniken
Please scroll to the end of the page and load the video. You can hear the PCM-D50 whenever it switches to the NT4 microphone (XY).

But phantom powered mics also work nicely with the Sony. You will just need an external phantom power supply unit and an adapter cable (2xXLR to 1/8" TSR). These can be obtained pretty cheap from a number of makers (for example Rolls PB224) - no need to buy the pricey XL1 unit.
A very good alternative is the CX231 juicedlink amplifier. Just yesterday I was recording my Neumann TLM102 condenser mic on the PCM-D50 using this unit as preamp and power supply with very nice results. I can send you a copy if you leave me a personal message.

I purchased a PCM-D50 to record ambient sounds and animal calls. It has a lot of nice features but I found that if I was recording in a VERY QUIET ENVIRONMEN with a gain control setting above 4 and a bit (the knob goes up to 10) that the amplifier noise became unacceptable. If there was a bit of noise in the background, as there usually is, and you can get close enough to the source the amplifier noise was MUCH LESS NOTICEABLE. I tried a borrowed Senheiser ME 66 which seemed to be a slight improvement. I very seriously considered purchasing a Sound Devices MM1 phantom power supply with preamp but at decided at the last minute that handling an MM1, a PCM-D50 and external microphone often in the dark might be too awkward. Instead I have ordered a Sound Devices 702. I hope it is a good choice.

I posted my concerns about the pre amplifier noise on this forum. The verdict seemed to be that most people were happy but two others were not. Some private emails followed and our final feeling was that all the recorders in this price bracket seemed to suffer from preamp noise. If all goes well with the 702 I will try to sell my PCM-D50.

Good luck

Thanks guys.

Alastair, the 702 is overkill for me. (at least for now). I hope you will be happy with it, though :)
If the preamps and line-in on the H4n are even worse than on the D50, it's enough to sway me towards the Sony.

Martin, your post is very helpful. Beautiful recordings, although I must admit the NT4 is my least favorite of the three. It sounds to me harsher (but I'm really not experienced enough in audio recording). What preamps/recorders were used for the other two?
I will send you a PM, I would love to hear the juicedlink sample, many thanks.

What about the impedance matching transformer cable, is there any need for it with the D50, or would any regular XLR to 1/8" TSR do?

Cheers,
Jon.

I have a Sony PCM-D50 that I use as a field recorder and as a dual audio system. I've never used it with anything but phantom powered mics which are powered by either a field mixer such as a SD 442 or similar. I've also used it to record feeds from large studio boards. The sound in those situations are quite good. I am however selling it so that I can use something that allows TC input for easier synching to video.

So Jon, if you're interested I don't know what shipping to you would be. I did first purchase the H4 but was very dissapointed with the sound quality. I've used the Sony for about two years now and never had a problem. The limiter on the Sony is one of the best I've used which is one of the big reasons why I went for that one over some of the other choices in compact field recorders.

If you're interested in buying my Sony shoot me a pm.

-Garrett

The other recordings were done on an Edirol R4. But the difference between the three is just the mics, not the recorder.

To Alastair and regarding the Sound Devices 702: This is one of the best field recorders available and certainly much better than the Sony PCM-D50. But it's also several times as expensive... If you didn't like the preamp noise of the Sony be sure never to test the H4n - that will be horrible in comparison ;-) BTW, the Sony becomes much quieter with external mics.

I agree the H4n mic preamps aren't great, but I don't understand your meaning about not being able to record line-level signals. The H4n records line-level signals very well using the 1/4-inch portion of the combo XLR/1/4-inch connectors.
I've also never noted any problem with distortion sending in an unbalanced 1/4-inch TS connector attached to the combo connectors. Or were you referring to using the 1/8-inch TRS connector for unbalanced signals? I haven't used the 1/8-inch connector yet.

Martin

By the way, thank you very much for the comparison. I thought the NT2-A's sounded best to my ears as you had them configured. I've been using an NT2-A for VO and really like it - maybe I'll pick up a second and do a side by side with my normal Schoeps/SD 702 set up (Usually M/S but with an omni instead of a cardioid) - I was already planning to mount my Sony PCM-D50 on the same bar as the Schoeps for a side by side and it wouldn't be any big deal to hang a pair of the NT2-A's up there as well. My wife (piano) and a violinist will be doing the Mozart 304 e minor and Beethoven "Spring" sonatas on the 21st so it will be a great opportunity to try them all.

I did a side by side of the Schoeps and Sony (w built in mics) mounted on the same stand a couple of years back for a concert band recording and while the Schoeps/702 was clearly better sounding, the Sony was quite acceptable. Great little price performer.

Sorry if the was a bit OT - I'll post the results in a new thread after the concert.

No, it doesn't. The inputs are much too sensitive (read:mic-level) and are overloaded by line-level signals. That is a well known complaint and a google search should reveal many hits. Or see here: Field recorder harmonics. That page will also show you how "well" the H4n handles unbalanced signals. But we've had this before in another thread.

Martin, you keep saying the 1/4 inputs are too sensitive for "line-level" inputs. I'll bet you're thinking line-level refers to the professional line level of +4dBu or even the older standard of +8dBu. Don't forget that the Zoom recorder is a consumer device, not truly in the professional camp, and consumer line-level is a nominal -10dBv, fully 12dB lower than pro line-level. Zoom's specs are clear that the maximum rated level for the 1/4 unbalanced inputs is +2dBm (dBu). If that's the maximum, it seems logical to me that the nominal would be much lower. If you're sending it a +4dBu "line-level" signal it's no wonder it's overloading. I've seen your other posts and I don't recall seeing that you were aware there were two quite different definitions of "line-level" or which one you were testing it with.

Steve, I have tested the Zoom with a consumer CD-player and the output was much too hot for it.
The output voltage of the player was about 1 volts which computes to 2.2 dBu - not far from the datasheet value of 2 dBm. But the input was very much overloaded - not just barely. I really don't care if this is pro level or consumer level: It is just not working with the H4n but it should.
BTW, I didn't have similar problems with any other recorder and there are many complaints about the Zoom's inputs being too hot all over the net. The competitor products which I am aware of do not have such problems either.

... message deleted ...

I haven't noticed on my particular H4n either of the problems you've documented on the H4n you had. I'll pay strict attention this week as I use it for several more projects, but so far it has been totally satisfactory with line-level signals both balanced and unbalanced.

I have retested the CD-player just now with my Edirol R4. Although this unit has a rated max input of 4 dBu there was still 6 dBFS of headroom left. And with the PCM-D50 I could get more than 40 dBFS of headroom with the input level knob turned down all the way while the Zoom H4n would heavily overload even at the lowest rec-level setting.
To Jay: I found no difference in the sensitivity of the 1/8" and the 1/4" inputs of the H4n.
But this is really getting off topic now...

Recently, I have been converting my analog cassette recordings to digital files using a H4n via RCA to XLR connector and I had no problems with the input levels.

P.

I have done some more research as I found that question of input-levels quite interesting.
There seem to be at least three widely used definitions:

+ 4 dBu for professional audio (including electrical instruments like synthesizers, mixing consoles and the like)
+ 6 dBu for professional video (Europe)
-10 dBV (or -7,8 dBu) for consumer audio (USA)

The Zoom H4n's line inputs are rated +2 dBm (or +2 dBu) and hence comply with the US-consumer standard (assuming the rating is correct) but with none of the professional standards.

My Marantz CD-player is a consumer device but it still has a rated output of 2 V rms (+8.2 dBu) which is way above the rating of the H4n. That explains the original overloading (but not the distortions as I have reduced the output level during those tests).
The 2 V rms output rating of the Marantz is not exceptional, though. CD-/DVD- and BluRay- players made by Panasonic/Technics and Sony, for example, are rated just the same. Pioneer specifies their CD/DVD-player's outputs with 200 mV rms (-11,8 dBu). But a quick test with a multimeter on the Pioneer player in my household revealed just the same 2 V output voltage with a 0 dBFS signal as with all the other Japanese players. It seems not all manufacturers care much about the US-definition of 'consumer line-level'...

And the other two field recorders?
The Edirol R4's inputs are rated +4 dBu but it still gives me 6 dBFS of headroom when recording the +8.2 dBu signal from the Marantz player.
The Sony PCM-D50's inputs are rated 2 V rms (equal to +8.2 dBu) just like the CD-player's outputs. But I can still crank the input level knob down to get over 40 dBFS of headroom when recording that +8.2 dBu signal.
In other words: Both recorders offer plenty of headroom well over their specification and are good for any signal.
BTW, the Tascam DR-100, which is probably the most direct competitor to the Zoom H4n, also has inputs which are good for 2 V rms (or +8.2 dBu).

What does this all mean?
Zoom is correct in calling the unbalanced inputs 'line level' - but only for standard-compliant consumer equipment. With non-standard consumer equipment or professional equipment it will overload considerably.

I have now added this text as an explanation to my page (http://www.martin-doppelbauer.de/fie...stortions.html).

Just thought I'd mention I ended up ordering the D50, and will have it in a few days...
Thanks to all of your feedback and thanks again Martin for the samples with the Juicedlink.

I have a lot to learn about audio recording, so I'm sure the D50 will keep me happy for quite a while ;)

One thing I still would really like to ask again is about the "Low to High Impedance Matching Transformer" cable.
Is it of any use with condenser mics and the D50? If not, in what cases is this type of cable useful?

thanks
Jon.

I have never used such a cable myself but it is my understanding this will transform the output of a microphone to a high impedance for Hi-Z instrument inputs (as used in guitar amplifiers).
For field recorders (or any other device with microphone inputs) the cable is not needed.

Thanks Martin. what you are saying makes sense.
However the cable is advertised as one that "enables a microphone or microphone level device to input into the stereo 1/8" (3.5mm) mini input found on consumer recording devices".
I've also heard in the past people claiming these sort of cables improving the signal when using dynamic mics with minidisc recorders, and improving condenser mics when using mic inputs of consumer cameras (i.e HV30), but I've never heard anyone explain exactly what the transformer in these cables actually does technically.

do you think I can damage something if I connect a condenser to the D50 mic input with this type of cable?

Cheers :)

Jon, let us know your experience with the cable.
I am pretty sure you can't damage anything as this is obviously purely passive (some resistors, maybe a transformer - that's it).

I will. I'll try it first with my mini disc recorder.
But there has to be at least one person here who has tried this type of cable with a field recorder, or with a consumer camcorder, or a HDSLR, no?

Question about using external mics with the PCM-D50:

Can you have two different inputs at once? If I wanted a shotgun mic running into the mic input and a wireless lav running into the line input, would this work? Or is it an either or kind of deal?

No, for the PCM-D50 it's either the line input or the mic input.

I've used the Hosa version of this lo>hi impedence adapter, with a Rode NT3. Worked fine with HV30 and also with PCM-D50.

Thanks Tsu
When you say 'worked fine' do you mean that it actually gives a noticeable improvement over a regular non lo-hi adapter cable?

Can I use a Beachtek with the PCM-D50 to give dual XLR inputs?

I got the PCM-D50 when I bought my Z7U thanks to the $500 Sony Store credit, but I've never used it. It's been sitting in the box, unopened for almost a year. I just picked up a Canon T2i so now I need an external sound recording option, I'd like to make the PCM-D50 work.

Seems like most people in that forum recommend the Zoom H4N, but after reading this thread it looks like I'd be better off sticking with my PCM-D50. However, the XLR inputs on the H4N are really appealing.

I've got a Beachtek unit (currently at a client's site) that I could use in conjunction with the D50 I guess, but I start to wonder if I'm getting too bulky and shouldn't go with a compact solution like the H4N.

Having used neither of these devices, and based on what I'd be using it for, what do you experts suggest I do? Most of my shooting would be interviews with 1-2 mics.

Thanks!

Hi Bryan

I'm very happy with the Sony - I think it's a price performer as it's mics are really quite good for something in this price range. I mostly do music (classical/brass band) and I use it as my back-up quite often. Since you have it I would use it! Lack of XLR is the biggest issue when using it as a recorder and the Sony XLR adapter costs almost as much as the D-50. Again you aleady have the Beachtek so should be no problem. Agree it is a bit bulky but it is quite a nice unit.

I think they have a rather clever limiter built in to the Sony unit - they run a short buffer of attenuated audio and if they detect clipping they cleverly replace the clipped section with the attenuated version - works very well IMHO.

Sure, the Beachtek is great with the PCM-D50. I prefer the active Juicedlink CX231, which is even better, but anyway, the Beachtek will also give you excellent results.
Agreed, this combo will be bulkier than the H4n but it will also give you better audio quality (less noise, less harmonics).

I have no experience with non lo>hi adapter, so can't comment.