Audio line out from a Tascam DR-100 to a Canon 7D at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > All Things Audio

All Things Audio
Everything Audio, from acquisition to postproduction.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 1st, 2010, 07:19 PM   #1
Major Player
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Hartford, VT
Posts: 201
Audio line out from a Tascam DR-100 to a Canon 7D

Hi all,

Situation: Recording audio for short film.
Experience: Wannabe Filmmaker
Budget: Limited, but flexible.
Microphone to be used: Rode NTG-3

I am about to purchase a Tascam DR-100 to get good sound for my Canon 7D. The DR-100 has a line out and I thought of plugging it into the 7D. But I saw this video:

YouTube - Canon 5D Mark II with RODE NTG-3 and Sennheiser G3 wireless into Tascam DR100

And had doubts about what would be the best approach. However, here are some...

Questions:

1)What cable would recommend from the Tascam's line out jack to the 7D's mic in?
2)If you connect the NTG-3 straight to the 7D, what cables do you need? Can you recommend one in particular?
3)Any good recommendation on a Phantom power adapter for the NTG-3?

Thanks very much, I really appreciate your time.

Kind Regards!!
Ben Tolosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4th, 2010, 07:18 PM   #2
Major Player
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 217
as a DIY'er,

You need a line to mic adapter, which brings the line audio level from the Tascam output down to the mic level of the camera's input. Easy to build, and incorporate into the XLR jack side, of the cable.
The other end of the calble looks like a stereo headphone jack.

"A" mic into the camera, again XLR to 1/8 jack.

Phantom power, either buy a proper unit, or again build one.
There are plenty of internet sources with circuits, for both of the above.
Again I am a DIY'er, and have done these myself.

What I have also tried is an XLR mic plug into a wireless senn. and into a 5D Mk II, works well.
Again, a Phantom power unit was used for the mic.

So, it looks like this- mic with XLR, into a Phantom power unit, the XLR output of Phantom power unit, goes to the Senn., which came with different cabling options, so I used the XLR cable to 1/8 mono jack, into the camera.

the tascam unit you have mentioned has Phantom power built in, so plug in the xlr cable from the mic to it.
Your only problem is the line to mic level, and you can either build it, only a few resistors to solder, or buy a ready made cable, online or at your favourite audio store.
__________________
I was told I have no vision, but boy do I see great!
Sam Mendolia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 5th, 2010, 09:33 PM   #3
Major Player
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Hartford, VT
Posts: 201
Thanks very much Sam!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Mendolia View Post
as a DIY'er,

You need a line to mic adapter, which brings the line audio level from the Tascam output down to the mic level of the camera's input. Easy to build, and incorporate into the XLR jack side, of the cable.
The other end of the calble looks like a stereo headphone jack.

"A" mic into the camera, again XLR to 1/8 jack.

Phantom power, either buy a proper unit, or again build one.
There are plenty of internet sources with circuits, for both of the above.
Again I am a DIY'er, and have done these myself.

What I have also tried is an XLR mic plug into a wireless senn. and into a 5D Mk II, works well.
Again, a Phantom power unit was used for the mic.

So, it looks like this- mic with XLR, into a Phantom power unit, the XLR output of Phantom power unit, goes to the Senn., which came with different cabling options, so I used the XLR cable to 1/8 mono jack, into the camera.

the tascam unit you have mentioned has Phantom power built in, so plug in the xlr cable from the mic to it.
Your only problem is the line to mic level, and you can either build it, only a few resistors to solder, or buy a ready made cable, online or at your favourite audio store.

Hey Sam, thanks very much for your message. I read and heard that the line out from the Tascam will get too 'hot'. And therefore create bad video and/or sound. So, how can I search for a cable already 'ready' for that purpose. You mentioned to 'buy a ready made cable'. How would I ask for it? I mean, what's the technical name?

I found this video, that shows how to build one (I guess is the same cable you are proposing). I rather spend a few bucks and buy one ready made.

Is this the type of cable you are suggesting?:

YouTube - Ultimate sound recording in Canon 5D / 7D and Sony PCM-D50

Also, do you know if I will still have to deal with the AGC problem?

I found this device:

Beachtek DXA-SLR Active Audio Adapter DXA-SLR - B&H Photo Video


That claims to disable the AGC feature, however the reviews are not the greatest...


Guy also talks about that issue and shows a very cool example:

YouTube - Canon 5D Mark II with RODE NTG-3 and Sennheiser G3 wireless into Tascam DR100

However, that video is more than half year old. Any fixes or solutions since then?

I know users are expecting a firmware update with the option to disable AGC and with sound levels.
But until then... any cable that disables it?

My idea is to phantom power the NTG-3 with the DR-100 and then plug a line from the DR-100's line out into the 7D's mic/line in... I currently do not have budget for a wireless system. However, I will get a G3 sometime next year...

Any more suggestions or ideas will be greatly appreciated ^_^

THANKS VERY MUCH!!!!
Ben Tolosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 6th, 2010, 03:44 PM   #4
DVCreators.Net
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 888
Hi Ben,

Thanks for bringing up this topic. I'm the "Guy" in the video.

Just ask yourself the question, "Did I really like the sound quality of the RODE NTG-3 and the Tascam DR100 in the video?" If so, problem solved, if not, search on, there may be better options out there, these forums are helpful, and I try to crank out videos based on demand to help answer these questions. So it's great to see people delving deeper, asking questions and referencing the videos.

The RODE NTG-3 shotgun mic coupled with the Tascam DR100 field recorder is arguably the most cost-effective dual sound system for the money. While the NTG-3 shotgun does perform exceptionally well indoors, small highly reflective "wet sounding" rooms are still a challenge, to avoid that hollow sound, I'd still recommend a hyper cardioid instead. The Audio Technica 4053b is one fine example. It sounds great in this video:


Some may recommend the Zoom H4n recorder, but just remember, it does not have two separate outputs for headphone and Line out - and it costs about the same as the Tascam.

To add the sync track to the Canon 5D or 7D Mic input of the camera, you can either get a DVcreator Line to Mic cable or build one. Then use Plural Eyes to sync in post, or hand sync.

I do not recommend using the in-camera audio fed into the Mic input for your final project, it's great to have as a guide track for syncing, however in all my tests, once the same in-camera audio is dropped into the timeline and external recorder audio is synced in the track below, , the Tascam's audio always sounds cleaner by a long shot when performing an A/B comparison.

The Juicedlink DT454 sounds pretty good with the 7D for most projects, it produces acceptable results, just not the caliber of the Tascam DR100. It's not the DT454's fault, it's the camera's. It may be extremely convenient to have the audio with the video, and for 60% of people, (news, blogs, web video, corporate, event, etc.) it'll pass, but for a high quality project, go with the Tascam DR100, or maybe even explore hiring out a professional with tens of thousands of dollars in gear along with the in the trenches, years of experience.

On the cheap, you could even just get a $99 Zoom H1 and a RODE Videomic coupled with 10' RODE VC1 extension cable and a Y cable. That's kind of what I'm doing here in the video, except with a lav.

__________________
Guy Cochran
DVinfo Sponsor, Cool Gear - DVeStore!
Guy Cochran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 6th, 2010, 05:35 PM   #5
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Arcata, Ca
Posts: 750
Here's a good line to mic cable. Get the -20db version.

Core Sound Attenuator Cables
__________________
My Work: http://www.youtube.com/ChadWork1
Sony FS5 :: Panasonic GH4 :: Sony PMW-EX1 :: FCPx :: AT4053b :: Rode NTG-3,
Chad Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 6th, 2010, 07:25 PM   #6
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: London
Posts: 222
<Some may recommend the Zoom H4n recorder, but just remember, it does not have two separate outputs for headphone and Line out - and it costs about the same as the Tascam>

Guy, in terms of the quality of the pre-amps with external mics, wold you say theres much difference in audio quality between H4N and DR100? Thanks!
Sherif Choudhry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 6th, 2010, 08:30 PM   #7
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Arcata, Ca
Posts: 750
Actually this cable may be better:

| Blog | DVcreators Line to Mic Cable
__________________
My Work: http://www.youtube.com/ChadWork1
Sony FS5 :: Panasonic GH4 :: Sony PMW-EX1 :: FCPx :: AT4053b :: Rode NTG-3,
Chad Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 6th, 2010, 09:52 PM   #8
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherif Choudhry View Post
<Some may recommend the Zoom H4n recorder, but just remember, it does not have two separate outputs for headphone and Line out - and it costs about the same as the Tascam>

Guy, in terms of the quality of the pre-amps with external mics, wold you say theres much difference in audio quality between H4N and DR100? Thanks!
Hey Sherif, I sent my H4N back and exchanged it for a DR100. Sonically IDK which is better, they both sound really good to me. But the Tascam has the advantage that Guy has highlighted and also has a far better battery system. The Tascam actually has redundant power supplies. The Zoom was terrible in this regard. Also, the Tascam has separate level controls, mechanical dials, the Zoom? Who knows because their manual is the most incomprehensible thing you could imagine. The price is about the same, the Tascam is the better unit to my mind. It's a great little unit. I often do performance videos for musicians who went to and are going to places like Julliard and Curtis. They know sound. And they always tell me how good the audio is -- I take that as more of a testimonial to the Tascam, not my marginal knowledge.

And Thanks Guy Cochran for all the great vids. Support dvinfo sponsors!
Brian Luce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7th, 2010, 08:02 AM   #9
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 528
I tried this exact same set up for the 7D. I use the Tascam DR-100 with my Audio Technica 4053 - great natural sound. I agree with Guy 100%.

And I also found that it is not worth running a line out to your mic on the 7D. You will just throw it away. Even with the correct cable it is not worth doing in my opinion.

A much better alternative is just use a camera mounted mic - yep, the good old Rode Videomic, and now you have a second audio track .... this could salvage you if the batteries die in the Tascam (0r zoom) or you make any other mistakes. So thats what I do - indoors I have the Rode on camera and I then use hyper cardioid mics (usually my AT 4053) going into my Tascam - works great and you have reliability.
Jon Braeley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11th, 2010, 12:02 PM   #10
Major Player
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Hartford, VT
Posts: 201
Thanks you :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Cochran View Post
Hi Ben,

Thanks for bringing up this topic. I'm the "Guy" in the video.

Just ask yourself the question, "Did I really like the sound quality of the RODE NTG-3 and the Tascam DR100 in the video?" If so, problem solved, if not, search on, there may be better options out there, these forums are helpful, and I try to crank out videos based on demand to help answer these questions. So it's great to see people delving deeper, asking questions and referencing the videos.

The RODE NTG-3 shotgun mic coupled with the Tascam DR100 field recorder is arguably the most cost-effective dual sound system for the money. While the NTG-3 shotgun does perform exceptionally well indoors, small highly reflective "wet sounding" rooms are still a challenge, to avoid that hollow sound, I'd still recommend a hyper cardioid instead. The Audio Technica 4053b is one fine example. It sounds great in this video:

Sanken, RODE, Audio Technica, Sennheiser and Da Cappo microphones on Vimeo

Some may recommend the Zoom H4n recorder, but just remember, it does not have two separate outputs for headphone and Line out - and it costs about the same as the Tascam.

To add the sync track to the Canon 5D or 7D Mic input of the camera, you can either get a DVcreator Line to Mic cable or build one. Then use Plural Eyes to sync in post, or hand sync.

I do not recommend using the in-camera audio fed into the Mic input for your final project, it's great to have as a guide track for syncing, however in all my tests, once the same in-camera audio is dropped into the timeline and external recorder audio is synced in the track below, , the Tascam's audio always sounds cleaner by a long shot when performing an A/B comparison.

The Juicedlink DT454 sounds pretty good with the 7D for most projects, it produces acceptable results, just not the caliber of the Tascam DR100. It's not the DT454's fault, it's the camera's. It may be extremely convenient to have the audio with the video, and for 60% of people, (news, blogs, web video, corporate, event, etc.) it'll pass, but for a high quality project, go with the Tascam DR100, or maybe even explore hiring out a professional with tens of thousands of dollars in gear along with the in the trenches, years of experience.

On the cheap, you could even just get a $99 Zoom H1 and a RODE Videomic coupled with 10' RODE VC1 extension cable and a Y cable. That's kind of what I'm doing here in the video, except with a lav.

RODE Lavalier Microphone on Vimeo


Hi Guy!!

Nice to meet you by the way. Yes, I did like the sound on your video. In fact your video was a big decision factor on my purchase. I did buy the NTG-3 with the DR-100. I have them home, and I tried/played with them yesterday. Just learning how to set the DR-100 on the right gain. I found that using it in medium gain, right XLR (so I can use the right dial/wheel which is easier to use, set up to mono) and wheel set to five was fine for dialogue indoors.

The reasons why I ended up with the DR-100 instead of the H4N are because:
Separate Line out and Headphone outputs.
Dual battery source (AAs and Lithium)
Rugged built.
I do not have the need of 4 channels.
External dial (manual) levels wheels (no digital through menu).

I also found one of those cables at B&H, but the one from DVcreators looks of a much better quality:
| Blog | DVcreators Line to Mic Cable

That is the one I am going to get. I just want to avoid the sync in post. Time consuming...

Are the results significantly better from syncing on post vs. syncing straight with/through this line to mic cable (1/8″ 1/8″ Line to Mic Cable /
Unbalanced 1/8″ to 1/8″ (mini) Stereo Cable w/ built-in -50dB Mic Pad) plugged to your 5D/7D?
Guy, thanks very much for your words of sound wisdom. I do follow you on Vimeo and Youtube. Super nice studio ^_^ I also liked the two videos you guys did about the Sennheiser G3 and wireless setup.
Keep up the good work, it is wonderful to have your videos available for learning!!

THANK YOU!!
Ben Tolosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11th, 2010, 12:07 PM   #11
Major Player
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Hartford, VT
Posts: 201
Thanks you all

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherif Choudhry View Post
<Some may recommend the Zoom H4n recorder, but just remember, it does not have two separate outputs for headphone and Line out - and it costs about the same as the Tascam>

Guy, in terms of the quality of the pre-amps with external mics, wold you say theres much difference in audio quality between H4N and DR100? Thanks!
Yeah, that is one of the reasons why I picket the DR-100... Great unit :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Johnson View Post
Actually this cable may be better:

| Blog | DVcreators Line to Mic Cable
I agree, the built looks much better!! Thanks Chad!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Braeley View Post
I tried this exact same set up for the 7D. I use the Tascam DR-100 with my Audio Technica 4053 - great natural sound. I agree with Guy 100%.

And I also found that it is not worth running a line out to your mic on the 7D. You will just throw it away. Even with the correct cable it is not worth doing in my opinion.

A much better alternative is just use a camera mounted mic - yep, the good old Rode Videomic, and now you have a second audio track .... this could salvage you if the batteries die in the Tascam (0r zoom) or you make any other mistakes. So thats what I do - indoors I have the Rode on camera and I then use hyper cardioid mics (usually my AT 4053) going into my Tascam - works great and you have reliability.

Hi Jon,

May I ask you why you think it is not worth doing it? I am asking you just beacuase I am trying to learn...

Thanks very much Jon!!
Ben Tolosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11th, 2010, 01:40 PM   #12
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Arcata, Ca
Posts: 750
Ben it may not be worth it when sending a line to your DSLR, to use that audio, especially if you are recording it in a dedicated recorder. BUT it is useful as A. A redundancy in case something goes wrong with your main recorder. B. To have a nice signal to line up clips in post vusually. C. To have a nice signal with wich to use Plural Eyes, the software that automatically lines up multi-cam audio or 2nd system audio like described. If you haven't heard of it, it's very nice, but it works best when the audio on the camera is better than what the camera mic picks up. The camera mic may be far away from your talent, so it my not get a good enough audio track to use for syncing.

Plural Eyes is about 150.00 and you can watch a little demo here: Singular Software
__________________
My Work: http://www.youtube.com/ChadWork1
Sony FS5 :: Panasonic GH4 :: Sony PMW-EX1 :: FCPx :: AT4053b :: Rode NTG-3,
Chad Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 11th, 2010, 02:12 PM   #13
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 1,844
I have to agree with Chad, a duplicate (or close to) audio track from the same mic is much easier to sync in post, (with or without Plural Eyes) not to mention the inherent delay in the cam mic. Approx.1 millisecond per foot., depending on the location of your primary mic.
( I'm not implying that it can't be done with a cam mic, or no cam- audio track at all for that matter.)
Rick Reineke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 12th, 2010, 07:42 AM   #14
Major Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 528
With the line in to your 7D you are still having to deal with the audio gain control plus you now have the recorder tethered to your camera which is worse for me.
I have my assistant get close to the subject - real close and the Tascam is usually 10 or 15 feet away from the camera so I do not have to run 20 foot XLR cables. Its fine if I am using my wireless Lavs.

The only problem I have with my Tascam, which may need a separate post, is I find I need the mic gain set to high most of the time to get decent recording levels.
Jon Braeley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13th, 2010, 12:20 PM   #15
Major Player
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Hartford, VT
Posts: 201
Thanks guys :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Johnson View Post
Ben it may not be worth it when sending a line to your DSLR, to use that audio, especially if you are recording it in a dedicated recorder. BUT it is useful as A. A redundancy in case something goes wrong with your main recorder. B. To have a nice signal to line up clips in post vusually. C. To have a nice signal with wich to use Plural Eyes, the software that automatically lines up multi-cam audio or 2nd system audio like described. If you haven't heard of it, it's very nice, but it works best when the audio on the camera is better than what the camera mic picks up. The camera mic may be far away from your talent, so it my not get a good enough audio track to use for syncing.

Plural Eyes is about 150.00 and you can watch a little demo here: Singular Software
Hi Chad,

Hey thanks very much for the tip. I have not heard from Plural Eyes before. However I am definitively going to consider it. I do have Final Cut Studio and was planing on syncing sound just with Final Cut Pro, not even with Soundtrack. But Plural Eyes seems to be a great option. I checked Dual Eyes, but it seems Plural Eyes must be a better solutions since there is a 'Final Cut Pro' option. I imagine it is a Final Cut Pro plug in, isn't it?

I will give it a shot to have a nice signal for post and as a back up is something goes wrong with the recording of the recorder.

Once again, thank you for your advice Chad!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Reineke View Post
I have to agree with Chad, a duplicate (or close to) audio track from the same mic is much easier to sync in post, (with or without Plural Eyes) not to mention the inherent delay in the cam mic. Approx.1 millisecond per foot., depending on the location of your primary mic.
( I'm not implying that it can't be done with a cam mic, or no cam- audio track at all for that matter.)
Well, thanks for the info Rick. I believe it is a great option. I will try it...

Best Regards!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Braeley View Post
With the line in to your 7D you are still having to deal with the audio gain control plus you now have the recorder tethered to your camera which is worse for me.
I have my assistant get close to the subject - real close and the Tascam is usually 10 or 15 feet away from the camera so I do not have to run 20 foot XLR cables. Its fine if I am using my wireless Lavs.

The only problem I have with my Tascam, which may need a separate post, is I find I need the mic gain set to high most of the time to get decent recording levels.

Hi Jon,

Do you have your Tascam plugged to a wireless system and then the receiver plugged into your 7D through its line in?

On the very little test I did, I had the same issue to deal with: I had to set the mic gain to High and set the little wheel/dial to 5 or up to get decent levels. With the shotgun mic 4 or 5 feet away from the talent (my wife ;) ).

Oh, well...

Hey thanks so much for sharing your experience!!

You have a great week ^_^
Ben Tolosa is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > All Things Audio

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:42 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network