Shotguns? Indoor? at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > All Things Audio

All Things Audio
Everything Audio, from acquisition to postproduction.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 1st, 2011, 04:14 AM   #1
Tourist
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3
Shotguns? Indoor?

I know I will be yelled at by posting this. Ty Ford will probably go on forever about how good a hypercard does indoors and how natural a Schoeps sounds. Thanks Ty I love you mic tutorial, but:

What would you guys do if you only have ONE SHOTGUN (416) and HAVE TO use it indoors, no other choice? The location (which cannot be changed) is stuffed with cushy chairs, possibly some carpets, foam board on walls, books on shelf and desk. Still it is not acoustically dead. Mic can get as close as 1ft.

Are there like other things I can do to achieve a near-hypercard quality? Like mic angles?

And how does a shotgun at its best sound against a hypercard indoors? Is the difference that significant in the aforementioned sort of rooms? Or is a shotgun always unusable no matter what you do to workaround its shortcomings? In Ty's video I actually prefer the 416's sound than the Schoeps, and the difference is not that of a big deal to my ears? Can some one educate me on that please? What are the standards of good dialogue recordings for dramatic films? Why is a bit more echoes/reverb (as in Ty's vid) so bad after all?

I'm not an audio pro of course, still trying hard to get better. I've gone thru Jay Rose's book, Holman's book and countless forums on audio. All say the conventional wisdom on shotguns vs hypercard indoors but seem to fail to bring forth workarounds for tough situations. Why is booming a shotgun indoors an absolute no-go?


Sorry about the length I got too nervous typing all those down. :D
Anh Dang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 1st, 2011, 10:43 AM   #2
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 133
You're doing all you can do to deaden the room, that will help. You only have the 416 but its an industry standard (I'm not a fan but that's just me) and you can get it in very close so the room reflections should not be too big of a deal. If you get the sound your ear likes to hear then its working. If the dialogue is loud you will get more room reflection but it would likely sound ok since the dynamics will justify the sound. We shot a 48 hour film fest scene in my great room (wood floors not much padding etc.) with a Rode shotgun. The NTG2. Sounded just fine. We were in about the same distance you describe.
Good on you for learning and asking and trying but all "rules" can be broken and what works, works. Opinions from "experts" are great but we're not on your set and the best way to learn is it try it yourself. If you don't like the way it sounds you could always rent something else to try. I'm a Schoeps user but as another expert is fond of saying on another forum: Its the archer, not the arrows. He teaches location/post sound so he should know. Relax and don't worry so much about what others think.
Best,
Bernie
Bernie Beaudry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 1st, 2011, 11:08 AM   #3
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 1,844
It mostly depends on the particular room as to what you can 'get away with'. Most books and such forbidding shotguns for interior dialog are generalizations. I occasionally use a shotgun in a plush or large room without issues..of coarse these instances are usually sit-down interviews or static dialog. Following a person with a shotgun, would most certainly be noticeable as the mic's proximity to hard walls, floors and ceiling is changing. Do whatever sounds good with the equipment you have. I don't think you will get arrested, though I can't guarantee that.

"What are the standards of good dialogue recordings for dramatic films?
Based on what I hear, there aren't any! But sometimes unintelligible and/or low quality sounding dialog can be blamed on post.
Rick Reineke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 1st, 2011, 11:53 AM   #4
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Novato, CA
Posts: 1,772
Ahn, as you've read it is generally better to use a hyper indoors. But again, this is a generalization. You're doing all the right things to get the best sound possible with the equipment you have available. I usually have guys that specialize in location sound when I'm working on a project and one thing that is nice is they always have sound blankets that they can use out of shot to help with particularly live areas of rooms. This helps a lot of the times. Technique with the mic is much more important from what I've experienced than the actual mic. Yes, in general a hyper would probably sound better, but you can get darn good sound from your 416 indoors if used properly.

Maker sure whoever your boom op is, is monitoring closely with a good set of cans. The low end of the 416 changes dramatically when off axis so you'll have to be aware of that. You asked why a bit more reverb or echo is so bad? It's mostly because you can't get rid of it once it's in there. You're dialogue can be too dead sounding too. But you can always manufacture reverb and make it sound natural. Once you've captured the dialogue and there's excess reverb or echo, it's really impossible to get rid of it and sound good (IMHO). There are some programs that can analyze the sound and help to get rid of it, but the problem is, it also takes out some of what is suppose to be there so it ultimately sounds very unnatural.

The most important thing is to work with what you've got available. If budget can take it, rent another mic. But if not, you're stuck what you've got. I've done plenty of shoots with a shotgun indoors and most people, even sound engineers, don't find it objectionable.

-Garrett
__________________
Garrett Low
www.GLowMediaProductions.com
Garrett Low is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 1st, 2011, 12:11 PM   #5
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tucson AZ
Posts: 2,207
Nobody here is yelling at you! Sounds like you have the right ideas. I've used almost anything I can get my hands on at one time or another and given enough time and effort and attention to what your ears tell you you can get more than acceptable results with almost anything you have.You might have to tie the talent down in one spot or move the talent away from reflective surfaces or drape moving blankets around the room or get a bunch of (quiet!) friends to sit around as human sound absorbers, or whatever, but you can make it work.

Personally I love my Schoeps 641 but I think it's more a matter of it being useful in a lot of situations and more flexible and easier to position for good results that makes a hyper "better" indoors.

Just my opinion FWIW.
Jim Andrada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 1st, 2011, 03:30 PM   #6
Tourist
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3
Wow, thank y'all for helping me out. These all are actually what I wanted to hear. I actually do not own the 416. My friend at a local rental house was kind enough to lend me his, unfortunately (and strangely) the house doesn't have any hypercard, what they have there are shotguns of all kinds with very expensive mixers and recorders. The 416 is the best shotgun they have so I was lucky.

Again, other than room treatment, I've heard somewhere about mic angles? Like at certain angles microphones will capture a minimal amount of reverb because the "region" where rejection is maximum is pointed toward the flat surfaces (ceiling). Is that true?


Thanks again everyone!


P/S: oh sorry about the yelling thing I shouldn't have assumed that!
Anh Dang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 1st, 2011, 03:39 PM   #7
Tourist
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3
Hi Bernie, how did you like the NTG-2? Since I'm just starting out that mic seems to fit my budget. Thanks again!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie Beaudry View Post
You're doing all you can do to deaden the room, that will help. You only have the 416 but its an industry standard (I'm not a fan but that's just me) and you can get it in very close so the room reflections should not be too big of a deal. If you get the sound your ear likes to hear then its working. If the dialogue is loud you will get more room reflection but it would likely sound ok since the dynamics will justify the sound. We shot a 48 hour film fest scene in my great room (wood floors not much padding etc.) with a Rode shotgun. The NTG2. Sounded just fine. We were in about the same distance you describe.
Good on you for learning and asking and trying but all "rules" can be broken and what works, works. Opinions from "experts" are great but we're not on your set and the best way to learn is it try it yourself. If you don't like the way it sounds you could always rent something else to try. I'm a Schoeps user but as another expert is fond of saying on another forum: Its the archer, not the arrows. He teaches location/post sound so he should know. Relax and don't worry so much about what others think.
Best,
Bernie
Anh Dang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 1st, 2011, 05:26 PM   #8
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 133
I thought the NTG 2 sounded ok. For the money its pretty good. However, if you like the 416 I'd go for the NTG 3. Its said to be similar sounding to the 416 with a slightly wider pattern. Some people like it better because its easier to keep it on pattern. Audio Technica also makes some decent shotguns and hypers for a reasonable price. Its important to take a listen if at all possible because mic selection is so subjective. The AKG Blue line, I believe, gives the option of different capsules including a shotgun. Search the forums including dvxuser.com for opinions on shotguns and hypers.
Best,
Bernie
Bernie Beaudry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 1st, 2011, 06:06 PM   #9
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 1,844
Our friend Dan did this comprehensive mic comparison a few years back, so it does not include the latest models, but is still likely to be of interest.
As I Hear It - Choosing the Right Microphone An Overview of Popular Short Shotgun, Supercardioid, Hypercardiod and Cardioid Microphones
By Dan Brockett
Rick Reineke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 1st, 2011, 07:42 PM   #10
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Camas, WA, USA
Posts: 5,513
Too bad they don't have a Sanken CS-3E. It's one of the few shotguns that I'd be comfortable using as a general indoor mic.

Sanken CS-3E - A magic mic?

That said, deadening the room is the way to go with the 416 - especially at the tail end of the mic. The challenge is that the off-axis will pick up bass and little else, which can give a hollow sound. If there are bookshelves in the room, pull them a bit from the walls and pull the books out to the front of the shelves. This can act as a poor-man's bass trap.

Also, get rid of as much unwanted sound as possible. Turn off the HVAC system. Unplug the fridge. (Put your car keys in the fridge to ensure that you remember to turn it and the HVAC back on again.) Unwanted sounds in a reflective room can really turn to mud on the 416.

You might not get the world's greatest dialogue, but you will likely get results that are more than usable. And if you're using borrowed equipment, that's probably more than good enough!

Best of luck with the project...
__________________
Jon Fairhurst
Jon Fairhurst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 28th, 2011, 08:16 PM   #11
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 134
Re: Shotguns? Indoor?

The CS-3e is my mic for indoor sit down interviews - use it in a wide variety of environments with great results. I am no where near as knowlledgable as most of these guys so i can't explain why it's able to break the long standing rules but i can vouch for its amazing range. Very happy with the results indoors.

good luck!
__________________
Greg Kiger St Louis Mo www.GreenBridgeFilms.com
Sony EX1 / Canon 5Dm2 / Cool Lights / DP1x / Marshall / Oktava / Sanken / Kessler
Greg Kiger is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > All Things Audio

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:24 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network