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Noa Put June 3rd, 2012 12:34 PM

looking for a iriver replacement
 
My iriver died and looking for a replacement, I always used it at the groom together with a archos amplifier and a clipon microphone. I need something small enough to fit the grooms jacket inside pocket and heard good thing about the tascam recorders? Anyone any experience with a small audio recorder with a line in that can function without a separate amplifier? My zoom h1 would fit the bill but it's too bulky.

Greg Miller June 4th, 2012 09:33 AM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Try the Tascam DR-03. It has mic in with "plug in power" so you won't need the separate preamp. It records to a standard WAV file, without compression. It also has record level meters so you aren't flying blind as you were with the iRivers. It's much thinner than an iRiver, so it doesn't cause as much bulge in the pocket. And it uses microSD cards. You can't go wrong.

Noa Put June 4th, 2012 09:51 AM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Thx greg for the input, strangest thing is that no Belgian store seems to carry the dr-03 in stock, smallest model that is available is the dr-05 but that seems about the same size?

Noa Put June 4th, 2012 11:54 AM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
just saw a tascam dr05 vs zoom h1 video on youtube and the Tascam is twice the size so I have to look further.

Chris Medico June 4th, 2012 12:48 PM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Hi Noa,

I hope this isn't asking the obvious here but what about grabbing another iRiver used off Ebay??

Oren Arieli June 4th, 2012 01:31 PM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Olympus makes a bunch of small, efficient digital voice recorders (that have mic input capability). I had one that is discontinued. It had reasonable (not stellar) audio quality, but the AGC was the bane of my existence. Not sure if any current models have the ability to set levels manually, but that would be worth a try. Let us know if you find something promising.

Greg Miller June 4th, 2012 01:34 PM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put (Post 1736598)
smallest model that is available is the dr-05 but that seems about the same size?

No, the DR-03 is significantly smaller than the DR-05; that's why I recommended the -03 and not the -05. Google the specs.

--------------

Chris:

IMHO the DR-03 is much better than the iRiver line. It's thinner, it records uncompressed WAV format, it has a recording level meter, and it uses microSD cards so you're not limited by the capacity of the internal memory. iRivers were good for their time (I have several hiding in a drawer somewhere) but they are not SOTA these days. (And a new DR-03 costs less than the iRivers cost when they were new!)

Noa Put June 4th, 2012 02:10 PM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Medico (Post 1736627)
I hope this isn't asking the obvious here but what about grabbing another iRiver used off Ebay??

My father has the same as I have and the line in connection died a few months after he had it, I just want something a bit more reliable since buying a second hand Iriver makes me a bit nervous.

Quote:

that's why I recommended the -03
In EU stores it's listed as discontinued? Seems its not been produced anymore.

Quote:

Olympus makes a bunch of small, efficient digital voice recorders
thx, will see what Olympus is offering here.

Noa Put June 4th, 2012 02:22 PM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Anyone familier with the Yamaha Pocketrak C24 (there's also a w24 version)? that seems pretty small and has a line in, not sure if I still would need a separate preamp.

Noa Put June 4th, 2012 02:27 PM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Ugh.. difficult to choose, now I see the Tascam dr08 which is half the price of the Yamaha, quite small and thin but pretty high.

Greg Miller June 4th, 2012 07:15 PM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
My shirt pocket is 5-1/4" deep. My suit coat inside pockets are all over 6" deep. The DR-08 is 5.4" long. It shouldn't stick out of an inside pocket, but if it does... so what? It's inside, and nobody will see it. And it's much thinner than the iRiver, so it won't bulge and make it look as if the talent (groom etc.) has a growth on his chest.

Do you want the world on a platter for $70? If you think 5.4" is too long, get a hacksaw and cut off the integral (pivoting) mics. Or get a Tascam PR-10 for a few dollars more. If you've put up with an iRiver for this long, you will love the Tascam.

Any connector will fail eventually. My advice for the relatively flimsy 3.5mm jacks is this: use a right-angle plug, which lays flat to the body of the recorder. After plugging it in, secure it to the recorder using a few wraps of a rubber band... that will keep it from wiggling around and repeatedly stressing the jack.

PS: what model iRiver(s) with failed connectors do you have?

Chris Frechette June 4th, 2012 08:48 PM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Have a look at the Sony PCM-M10 when looking at small recorders. I regret not buying this sooner instead of the Tascam DR-07mkII I had spent money on previously. The preamp is so much cleaner than my Tascam or my old iRiver iHP-140.

Noa Put June 5th, 2012 01:53 AM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Miller (Post 1736675)
Do you want the world on a platter for $70? If you think 5.4" is too long, get a hacksaw and cut off the integral (pivoting) mics.

Hehe, you' r right Greg, not about the cutting but about the price vs size. :)

The iriver model I have used the past years was the t20mx, about the Tascam PR-10, that's another one I can't find available in EU stores so I will order the DR-08 today, just need to be sure it doesn't require a separate preamp like my iriver did. And if it's good I"ll get a few more, it's very cheap and always comes in handy.

Thx all for the input so far.

Noa Put June 5th, 2012 02:01 AM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Frechette (Post 1736687)
Have a look at the Sony PCM-M10.

Thx for the tip Chris ,I appreciate it, I'm sure the Sony would be of superior quality but it's quite expensive, here about the same as a zoomh4 and 3 times more expensive then the Tascam dr08. I just need a somewhat clean recording that I can bump 15 to 20db if necessary without getting excessive noise from a voice and the Iriver has been good for my use, so I think the dr08 will be more then adequate. I used the iriver to pick up the voice from the bride and priest as well during the vows at a wedding and that's why I need to apply quite some gain in post somethimes.

Greg Miller June 5th, 2012 04:30 AM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Noa:

There's a US music dealer called Sweetwater, Welcome to Sweetwater.com | Call Us @ 800 222 4700 who is listing the PR-10 right now for $69 USD. (Also, many listings on US eBay.) I don't know whether they will sell to Belgium or what shipping would cost.

The PR-10 is slightly shorter than the DR-08, as the mics don't protrude. The manual clearly states that it has a 3.5mm stereo mic input which supplies "plug-in power" so you do not need a preamp or an external DC supply for the mics.

BTW, some of the iRivers did NOT require an external mic preamp as the input was switchable to mic level. Which model do you have?

Noa Put June 5th, 2012 04:56 AM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Hi Greg, I had the t20mx which needed the archos preamp I had attached to it. Without it I had no sound.
About ordering overseas, I have done that before but when adding custom taxes and sending costs it becomes too expensive for such a cheap device where it often is double the original prize, it's only worth while if I order from f.i. China, that gets delivered right to my doorstep without extra taxes.

Greg Miller June 5th, 2012 09:53 AM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Noa,

I never heard of the T20, perhaps that a non-US model. The T20 appears to be pretty small, but the need for an external preamp offsets that fact. I can't even find detailed specs online, it must be rather obscure. A lot of folks use the iRiver 7xx or 8xx series, which do have mic-level inputs, but are rather thick.

Too bad you don't have a friend coming to visit you from the US soon, who could bring you a few PR-10s as gifts... they are dirt cheap right now ($69 USD). Is it really that bad buying stuff, living in Europe? What happens when you buy stuff from eBay?

Good luck with your quest!

Noa Put June 5th, 2012 11:18 AM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Yes, the T20 is discontinued longer time ago and is very small but together with the archos preamp it becomes quite bulky but it has served my purpose well, a few years ago there was some talk about the t20 on this forum and some weddingvideographers used it, when I started looking it was not been made anymore but many were to be found on Ebay in the US, luckily I found a Belgian audio store that had 2 of them as last stock and they were quite cheap as well (around 40 dollar for the iriver and 30 for the archos preamp with clipon mike)

If I buy from Ebay in the US I have to consider custom duty costs, taxes and sending cost which easily can double the price for a cheap item. That's why it's often no benefit, I do buy quite some accessoires from China, like last time I bought a batterygrip and 2 (not original) canon batteries for my t2i and it was dirtcheap (around 60 dollar) then I don't have to deal with these extra costs, even sending costs are amazingly low, it's often more expensive to send something in my own country then getting it from China to here. :)

Well, I finally placed my order just now (as I need it on a shoot this friday) and it is a Yamaha Pocketrak C24 from a Belgian audio store, the Tascam dr08 was not available in Belgium, only the Netherlands and when I buy in another EU country it becomes a intracommunautaire transaction, it basically means tax is deducted immediately and as a company I can by "taxfree". If I buy online their paying system should take this into consideration but often sites don't have this arrangement meaning it will become difficult for my bookkeeping accountant to retrieve the taxes I paid. The Dutch sites where I found the Tascam did not have this so it's cheaper/easier just to buy in Belgium. You see, very complex arrangements just to buy something :D

So, often I"m better of buying in Belgium or China : )

Greg Miller June 5th, 2012 08:19 PM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Noa,

I do not envy you with all the extra pain of buying, shipping across borders, import duty, taxes, etc. It makes me thankful to be here.

I hope the Pocketrak will serve you well. I remember looking at those, myself, before I bought the Tascam line (DR-03 and DR-05). As I recall, they looked pretty good... perhaps I bought the Tascams because of a lower price. If you have a chance, post back here with a review of your experience with the Pocketrak, after you have used it a few times, as it might help others in the future.

Cheers!

Noa Put June 9th, 2012 05:46 AM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
So yesterday I put the yamaha to the test, a bit too soon as I did just a few testruns the day before using a clipon mike connected to the line in of the recorder and that at least sounded really good, I"m not an audio guy so specialists will probably hear differences between a zoom h1/4 or whatever recorder but if I don't hear noise in the background and if can boost the signal considerably without getting excessive noise I"m happy.

Yesterday I did encounter a problem, where they held the ceremony there was no sound mixer, that was on the other side of the building and they had xlr outputs in the wall in every major room, so they could easily plugin a mike and control the sound from one central location. So I was not able to get a line for my xh-a1 to capture the voices. The sound mixer itself also didn't have any available output line to go to my zoom h4 and the soundspeakers where build high into the ceiling.

Then I decided to strap the small yamaha directly onto the handle of the handmicrophone and use it inbuild microphones, I used a small piece of rubber (cut from the inside tire of a bicycle) to place between the mike handle and recorder to prevent it from sliding and used 2 velcro straps to tighten it onto the handle. The yamaha is a bit longer but very thin and not wide so you could still grab the mike handle, incl the recorder without a problem.

The yamaha recorder I put on auto gain controll to let the recorder handle the audio levels and to prevent any clipping of sound if persons would speak too loud and close to the mike and I selected a mp3 quality with a bitrate of 192kbs.

I just heared the result, some persons had the handmicrophone against they mouth with maybe 5 cm distance to the external microphones of the Yamaha and some guys where talking quite loud. The result was just great, the sound quality was very good and when it was silent I couldn't hear excessive hiss because the autolevel pushed the gain too high, perfectly usable audio that was equally good compared to using my clipon mike attached to a persons vest.

With this result I will use this recorder for the evening speeches or whenever I can attach it onto a mike since I never have been able to capture those 100% right, the only disadvantage the recorder has is that is has a bulge where the mikes are and to have it flat against hand-microphone's handle I needed to place it with the controls against the handle. That means I first need to start the recorder, activate the "hold" switch on the recorder to prevent any other unwanted actions and then strap it onto the mike. In that way I can't control the start/stop button once it's recording and in order to stop it I need to take it off again. Think I will make something to fill the gap on the backside so I can attach it and just leave it onto the mike as long as there are speeches and I can turn it off in-between any speech.

For the very limited time I have been able to use and test it the outcome is much better then I expected so this will be a fixed item in my gear bag. :) It's only too bad that it looks and feels like a toy, the plastic looks shiny, smudges easily and looks cheap but as long as it performs and don't fall apart I don't care.

Steve House June 9th, 2012 10:58 AM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
I strongly recommend you NOT use mp3 for your original source recordings. PCM (wav) files recorded at 48kHz, 16bit, are the preferred format for original recordings that will be synced to video. The smaller file sizes, thus longer recording time, gained by using mp3 are a poor trade-off for the lower sound quality and potential timing (sync) issues introduced by the mp3's compression scheme. MP3 is useful for audio sketchbook kind of recording - class notes, band rehearsals, that sort of thing - or for distribution, but should never be used for original master recordings destined to be edited and mixed. If you need to distribute an audio-only file as an mp3 for some reason, it should still be originally recorded as uncompressed PCM and left that way throughout the entire editing process, converting it to mp3 only as the very last step after everything else has been completed.

Noa Put June 9th, 2012 11:46 AM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
I only use mp3 to get much more on a card and honestly, when played back through the speakers of a regular lcd tv, (where all my dvd's are viewed at by my clients) it sounds pretty good and clear to me. The only sync issues I get is with my zoom h4 and with mp3 and wav recordings but that was a problem with the first gen devices of this recorder anyway, speeches from other recording devices in mp3 (iriver, zoom h1) have not caused any sync issues so far with my video, even not with one hour plus recordings. The only difference I have heared between mp3 and wav is that mp3 produces a bit more noise and that is when using a relatively good sennheiser headphone to hear that, but once it passes the tv soundspeaker, I can't hear the difference and I"m sure my clients won't either. I'm not saying mp3 is better then wav because it isn't but for what I deliver that difference will not be noticed.

Rick Reineke June 9th, 2012 11:49 AM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
I'm with Steve.. I would NOT use mp3 for your original source recording. Furthermore, every time the MP3 is re-encoded, another performance hit takes place.
If you need to save space, some recorders have a 'mono' (single-channel file) mode. Where it's half the size of a stereo -2-track PCM files. Of course this is only really usful in a single mic config.

Steve House June 9th, 2012 01:30 PM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
No disrespect intended Noa, but I just can't believe a cheap consumer recorder has an accurate enough clock to maintain dead-on sync with a video camera over the course of a single take that lasts an hour. It's hard enough to achieve with pro level equipment costing multiple thousands of dollars and professional broadcast concert productions rely on master clocks feeding common time-base sync signals to both the cameras and the audio recorders in order to achieve it. Five minutes, maybe ... but if you say it stays in sync for an hour or more I can only conclude you're not looking at it critically enough. Loss of sync to ANY perceptible degree, no matter how small, is unacceptable in a program you have charged a client money to produce. You can't count on your clients always only using minimal equipment - sure as shootin' one of them is eventually going to play your DVD on a state-of-the-art home theatre system with high-end sound and a screen big enough to clearly see the speaker's lip movements and when he does, it better look and sound perfect ... not just close but perfect!

Noa Put June 9th, 2012 02:05 PM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Steve, I never had any sync issues with my iriver or zoom h1 and that for one to 1,5 hour recordings, only with my zoom h4 but that goes out of sync on mp3 and wav and those first gen models are known for that.

I just did the test with the 192kbs mp3 recording I did yesterday with a 100 dollar Yamaha Pocketrak C24. I added my main camera, a xh-a1 to the timeline, a one hour and 27 minute continuous recording and synced the Yamaha at the very beginning and at the end the audio was still dead on, I could not hear the slightest echo and I used a Senheiser HD485 to check on the sync, if there was a delay, I would have noticed.

Sorry to say I don't have that experience you have with sync at all with my mp3 recordings and my hearing is still quite allright :)

edit: also to let you know, with my zoom h4 I do adjust the tempo in audacity for each recording to get it in sync with my camera's, not close but perfect, I don't deliver dvd's with out of sync audio.

Steve House June 9th, 2012 05:26 PM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Sorry, but I don't know what you're looking at when you say "there's no echo" as a test for sync accuracy. Here's how to test it. Roll camera and your recorder. Whack a head slate with a clapper. Let 'em both roll. An hour later whack a tail slate and turn them both off. Import your video into your editor. Add your audio file, aligning the audible clap at the head to the video frame where the sticks just touch each other in the video. Fast forward 1 hour in the timeline. If the audible tail-slate clap doesn't fall on the exact frame where the sticks touch each other again your sync has drifted and your setup is not close enough to use a take of that length without adjustments in post. I would be amazed if the audible clap at the tail came within +/- 3 frames or so of the video frame where the sticks come together. For two cheap clocks to be identical to within a 1/10 second tolerance over an hour's time is an amazing feat.

Noa Put June 9th, 2012 11:38 PM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Steve, what you just described is the routine I did to calculate the amount of out of sync with my zoom h4 and to get the exact percentage it deviates and get the number I have to enter in Audacity to change the length, that routine was described very detailed by a zoom h4 user years ago who faced that sync issue I and many other zoom h4 users did, he wrote it in a forum and it very well could have been this one, I don't remember.

if you lay 2 sound recordings on top of eachother, like I did yesterday with my xh-a1 and the yamaha and if you make them sound equally loud, if there is the slightest sync issue you will start to hear a echo which will get worse after time untill you hear the voices being totally off, if in both recording after one and a half hour you don't hear any deviation or slightest echo at all, for me the recorders don't deviate; I also have the waveform to confirm that. If you would apply the routine that you described for a 1,5 hour recording, then yes, you might find a very small deviation but let's be honest, if you don't hear any deviation or see any deviation in the waveform after 1,5 hour with 2 recordings running simultaneously, why would you even bother to run that test you described?

I mean, you don't have to believe me, I only can talk about my experience with my zoom h1, my iriver and now my yamaha recorder and they at least don't drift like my zoom h4 does, for each mp3 recording I have done for weddings (ceremonies specifically) the past years the zoom h1 and iriver never gave me any issue when I synced them with my other camera's. Maybe I"m just extremely lucky :)

Also about the quality difference between mp3 and wav, yes, mp3 is a compressed format and yes, mp3 will result in a lower sound quality but what I hear coming from my yamaha f.i. is still miles better then what you could hear coming out the sound speakers in a church. You should also know that the only rule to get good sound is to get it as close as possible to the speakers mouth, a 10000 dollar mike on the other side of the room is worse then a 100 dollar recorder attached to the hand microphone where they speak in.

For my clients all they where used to is that crappy hollow sound that came out of the sound speaker which is often very difficult to understand (especially in churches), add a crying child to the background and you are totally lost, I provide them with MUCH clearer sound coming from a cheap iriver (that unfortunately has died now) as that one was attached to the grooms vest or like with the last wedding directly attached to the hand microphone and each time they can't believe how good and clear the sound is, a sound guy will hear the difference in his expensive audio software and sound system but my clients will never hear the difference between mp3 or wav recordings since they can only compare with what hey heard live and compared to that it's like I can provide sound to the deaf. :D

If I have a bit more time I will run your test with my video camera and the yamaha recorder and report back here, just out of curiosity how much it actually deviates, judging on the waveform I can't see even one frame deviation right now.

Noa Put June 9th, 2012 11:54 PM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
double post

Noa Put June 10th, 2012 12:57 PM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Ok, had the xh-a1 run for 1hour and 15min and the yamaharecorder the same time, I recorded in mp3, 192kbs, made a clapping sound in the beginning and at the end, placed both recordings on the timeline in Sony Vegas Pro 10, synced both with the first clap in the beginning and after 1hour 15min there was a deviation of about 0.008 sec.(I don't know how to read these timeunits in Vegas as I couldn't see a scale but I enlarged that much that 1 frame filled my lcd screen, measured the length of one frame and then the length of the deviation which was 20% of one frame and that should be 0.008sec, if I"m wrong math wizards should correct me. :) )

So 0.008 sec over a time period of 1 hour and 15 minutes, still not convinced Steve? I am :)

Greg Miller June 10th, 2012 11:17 PM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put (Post 1737458)
I only use mp3 to get much more on a card and honestly

Honestly, a 2GB card holds 2+ hours of WAV file, a 4GB card holds 4+ hours, etc. With so much time available on inexpensive cards, there is no reason to use the lower-quality MP3 files.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put (Post 1737458)
when played back through the speakers of a regular lcd tv, (where all my dvd's are viewed at by my clients) it sounds pretty good and clear to me.

Just "pretty good and clear"? So you think all of your dad's clients have cheap TVs? You don't think anyone might watch one of your videos on a decent system some day? You don't aspire to gain a good reputation in the future?

You did come here for advice, right? So I'm wondering why you are disagreeing with advice from established pros. Or have you suddenly gained many years worth of experience and expertise yourself?

No offense intended, but really, step back and look at the big picture...

Noa Put June 11th, 2012 01:26 AM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Quote:

You did come here for advice, right?
Ehm, I came here to ask for a good iriver replacement, not for advice about me using MP3 as a recording format.

Remember that I"m not recording the philharmonic orchestra, then I would use the best recording format available but I"m sure a yamaha pocket recorder would not be used for this type of recording.

I do weddings solo where I have 2 minutes set-up time to place 3 external recorders and where they are placed is decided the moment I enter the church (we don't do rehearsals here)

My recorders are sometimes placed in locations which are far from optimal (to far from the persons) but they still record sound much better then what you can hear coming out of the soundspeakers.

I did a mp3/wav test with the Yamaha and both produced the same amount of noise in the background when it was quiet, this is what the waveform in Vegas showed me and what I could hear through my headphones, only wav had a bit richer tone to it.

Take all the garbage that's been recorded as well, like screaming kids, echo from the church, a airconditioner blowing or whatever unwanted background noise you can have in these public locations you won't hear the difference between mp3/wav, trust me, that bit richer tone wav produces gets lost in all that noise, for me clarity of the voice is what counts and there I at least can't hear the difference between both formats in such recording surroundings.

I always work with the included card in such recorders and if mp3 produces a quality where my client will never notice the difference, I"m more then happy to leave it there so I can record all day to it if required.

About disagreeing with advice from established pros, if they tell me a mp3 recorder can hold sync for just 5 minutes and if the "amateur" proves then it can hold sync for more then an hour? And I will do the same for the zoom h1 recorder if the pro would like to disagree on that too and I will show them the deviation will be equally small, unless, you regard 0,008sec a deviation, then ofcourse they are right.

I never disagreed on the fact that mp3 is a lesser format then wav, when you need the most from a recording, like in a controlled room, where you can place your mikes in the best possible way, of course you'd select the best possible recording format. But if you are a solo weddingshooter like me, your very happy about the quality difference just mp3 recordings can produce in these battlefield conditions we often have to work in with no prep time at all. It's actually the same with videocamera's, I know weddingvideographers that use a few gopro's as additional camera's, they can produce "pretty good and clear" footage as well in church but they are not in the same league as a professional videocamera, a "real" pro might say, "don't use those, the image quality is not the same!" but for what they cost they deliver added value to a wedding where the client will be more then happy when they see their wedding covered from different angles, even if those tiny camera might not have the exact same sharpness, low noise, latitude or whatever compared to the big cams..

I mean, do you shoot weddings solo Greg and do you have years of experience in "the field"? I know what the big picture looks like my friend, happy clients are my first concern and I provide them with a experience they won't forget for years to come, I consider audio as an important part of a wedding and they can hear themselves talk much clearer during those important moments then what their family and friends could ever hear at the time of recording. The only comment I get is "wow, that's clear" and I"m still waiting for my first client that will tell me "uhm, that sounds like a mp3 recording, doesn't it?"

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the advice I get here about mp3/wav, even if that was not what I asked for and I do respect the people that have expertise in those fields, but I also expect people to step back and look at it from my point of view as well considering the circumstances and clients I work for, only then they would see the bigger picture :)

Stewart Hemley June 11th, 2012 03:15 AM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Good reply, Noa. I admire your patience and restraint. It's clear you were not disregarding the advice offered and it's equally clear you have tested your claims and proved them to yourself. I don't see how anyone could feel a need to criticise you for that.

Steve House June 11th, 2012 04:00 AM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put (Post 1737610)
Ok, had the xh-a1 run for 1hour and 15min and the yamaharecorder the same time, I recorded in mp3, 192kbs, made a clapping sound in the beginning and at the end, placed both recordings on the timeline in Sony Vegas Pro 10, synced both with the first clap in the beginning and after 1hour 15min there was a deviation of about 0.008 sec.(I don't know how to read these timeunits in Vegas as I couldn't see a scale but I enlarged that much that 1 frame filled my lcd screen, measured the length of one frame and then the length of the deviation which was 20% of one frame and that should be 0.008sec, if I"m wrong math wizards should correct me. :) )

So 0.008 sec over a time period of 1 hour and 15 minutes, still not convinced Steve? I am :)

In Vegas you should be able to set the units for the timeline to your preferred units by right-mouse clicking on the timeline and choosing from the pop-up menu. If you select SMPTE EBU 25FPS (appropriate for PAL video) the timeline scale numbers read in hours:minutes:seconds:frames.

I'm still not convinced your test is valid and you haven't accidentally introduced an error. If a $100 recorder can hold sync to less than a single frame deviation over an hour length take, why would the producers running TV network remote crews and the like - people notoriously tight with every penny - spend thousands of dollars on master clocks and Lockit boxes to insure their multi-tens-of-thousand broadcast cameras and multi-thousand dollar audio recorders maintain acceptable sync? Or consider why the producer of a reality TV show who wants to plant recorders on the cast instead of using wireless would spend $1000 on something like a Zaxcom ZFR200 to get an accurate clock with timecode when the $100 Yamaha pocket recorder would do as good a job?

Noa Put June 11th, 2012 04:00 AM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Quote:

I admire your patience and restraint.
At last someone that understands where I am coming from :) I also understand where some other are coming from and it's clear they are involved in productions where audio is considered critical and where a bit less then excellent is not an option. But I'm also almost sure they don't work in environments like I do where I charge "only" 1400 dollar for a full wedding day including all the editing afterwards, using 2 dslr's and 2 videocamera's, a steadicam, a slider and 3 to 4 separate audio recorders and that all by myself. You often have to make decisions that will involve less then excellent results but still more then what you client had hoped for and for what they pay, they get a lot. For those who are doing weddings alone and not being able to charge big time know what I am talking about.

I don't mind being criticized, I expect people who are expert in certain fields to question why I work the way I do, I only don't like that lecturing tone some have without even trying to see it from my point of view.

Noa Put June 11th, 2012 04:12 AM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Thx Steve for the Vegas tip, I do edit in Edius 5.51 but that is quite limited in the audio section so I sometimes do some basic cleaning up of my audio in vegas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve House (Post 1737697)
I'm still not convinced your test is valid and you haven't accidentally introduced an error.

What error could that be, you record, clap twice and sync it up at the beginning clap peak and look at the end clap peak in your NLE and see how much it deviates, it's not rocket-science. No offence Steve, but I don't feel like going into endless discussion that leed nowhere. It works for me, I don't hear any deviations with my zoom h1, yamaha recorder and previously my iriver when in mp3 format for 1 hour recordings. Lets just say that you are right and I"m lucky and leave it at that.

Steve House June 11th, 2012 08:29 AM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
I'm thinking you may not have zoomed your Vegas timeline in to the point where you could see individual frames. At less detailed zoom levels a single frame thumbnail on the screen represents a group of actual frames. When zoomed all the way out a full 15 seconds of video might be represented by only 2 thumbnails on the timeline. What happens when you zoom in to the point where each frame in the clip is represented by an individual thumbnail, the timeline numbers increment by single frames, and the unlabeled tick marks between the numbers represent, say, 1/4 frame? Do your visual and audible tail claps still fall on the same frame?

Noa Put June 11th, 2012 11:53 AM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
You are really on a mission to prove me wrong :) I zoomed in on framelevel (not a group of frames) and the deviation occurred within that one (1) frame. like 25 frames meaning 1 second and 1 frame 1/25th of a second and within that 1 frame or 1/25th of a second there was a 20% deviation.

Steve House June 11th, 2012 02:05 PM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
I'm not trying to prove you wrong, far from it. It's just what you say you're observing is so far off from what most people's experiences are. The common experience is for two consumer-grade devices to drift apart by an unacceptable amount over the course of about 10 minutes, sometimes faster. For two such to maintain frame-level sync over a 1-hour duration continuous single take is virtually unheard of. You're either incredibly lucky or there's something else going on.

As far as recording to mp3, I truly don't understand why you would accept the compromise when it doesn't have any real apparent benefit. Memory cards are cheaper than dirt, no need to conserve there.

Noa Put June 11th, 2012 02:18 PM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Ok, I"ll do another test, not with letting it run and clap again but I"ll take a recording from a wedding I did a few weeks ago with my xh-a1 and a recording from my zoom h1 which recorded a 320kbs mp3 file, I will use a continuous church recording of at least an hour and synch the audio from the zoom in the beginning when people start to speak at the lectern (the zoom h1 was placed there and had a clipon mike attached to it's line in) and check at the end of the recording when someone reads to first listen if I hear a deviation and then see if there is a deviation if I can find a certain obvious peak sound for reference in both files.
Both files are the original unaltered files as they came out of the camera and zoom h1.

If I have to believe you there should be a really obvious out of sync recording after already 10 minutes, I can be incredibly lucky once but not twice, right? So I"ll check and report back.

Greg Miller June 11th, 2012 02:42 PM

Re: looking for a iriver replacement
 
Noa, I do understand where you're coming from. I don't shoot weddings but I've been caught in some run'n'gun situations where I still had the recorder in my hand when the audio started. It's not always fun out there in the trenches.

Be that as it may, I can pretty much summarize my thoughts as follows.

First: given everything you say about shooting conditions, schedules, etc., there is still no advantage to using MP3 format over WAV. You still have to record the same people in the same situation in the same room. WAV will not make any of that impossible. Everything will be the same: same mic, same recorder, same talent, same room. There is no reason NOT to use WAV.

Second: some very experienced people have stated that WAV sounds better, and even you agree that with some tests WAV sounds better to you. So, since WAV sometimes sounds better, and never sounds worse, there is no reason NOT to use WAV.

Perhaps some day you will be listening on a different system, or using different hardware, and the difference will be more apparent to you than it is now. So, given the above two points, I still conclude that you're better off in the long run to use WAV.

And, by the way, I'm not sure how much this has been clarified before: if you open an MP3 file and do any editing whatsoever, then save it as an MP3 again; then re-open and re-edit and re-save... each time the quality will deteriorate somewhat. So even if you start with an MP3 file, you should immediately convert to WAV before doing any editing (or cleaning, equalizing, etc.) and then always save as a WAV as you go along. Given that you will end up working with a WAV file in the studio, that just seems like one more reason to start with a WAV file.

Anyway, glad to hear that you're happy with the new recorder. I think it will be much better than your iRiver was. And perhaps as you get accustomed to hearing the new recorder, your ear will become more discerning and you will start to notice things that you didn't notice before. A win-win situation.


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