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Old August 28th, 2012, 03:00 PM   #16
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Re: How much applause to retain in recording?

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John Willett: ".... captures the energy of the event..." John, I like your phrase here. Video is part of the transmission, sound/audio is part of the transmission, but what one is trying to transmit is feeling, emotion, and as you say, energy. Can't spell it out here in just a few words but I know what you're saying. We need to look beyond just sight and sound try to transmit, if you will, the feeling (for lack of a better word(s)).

I like your post applause comments and I'll try to remember them.

Steve House: Weston Master V, if you bought one of those that kinda dates you, er.... us. Got mine just as the Master IV quit being sold. One of the things I liked about the IV was it the "Foot-Candles".

Good to read your comment (and Shaun Roemich's) about the white-balance card not being a required item. I'll be on the lookout though for some kind of substitute.

Shaun Roemich: "Placement OF said white reference is FAR more important." Once I get something to use I'll definitely be keeping this in mind.

"An OLD light meter loses its accuracy due to the nature of the sensitivity of the light sensor over time." Reply: I didn't know that so it's good to know. I've sold off some of my Nikon SLR gear but still have the Weston meter and a few other things. It really tugged on my heart strings to let the Nikon Photomic T go. That was a massive piece of metal work and for what I got for it I probably should have kept it as a paper weight or book end. *sniff*

Richard Crowley & Shaun: "If you can't get the right mics into the right location, I seriously question whether it is even worth doing at all." and "I'm sure the parents that didn't bring camcorders will be happy that they have SOMETHING available." Reply: Basically, that was what this shoot was, something for the two sisters (kids), the parents of the kids, and the grand parents, me being one of them.

For my part, it was also a learning exercise in using my equipment and editing afterward. This shoot allowed me to experience so many things for the first time so for me it was a huge learning experience.

Shaun Roemich: "I think a more accurate statement of how I see this no-win situation is: "If I don't/can't control the things I need to in order to provide PROFESSIONAL results, I may pass as my reputation is on the line" Reply: If you can afford it, money isn't everything.

Several years ago I turned down what seemed like a good job but during the interview I learned that others would have great control and input over what I deemed was my professional area and I opted out. My supervisor at the time was actually in on the interview and he thought I made a wise decision.

Locally we have county commissioners and mayors making decisions that go counter to what the professionals want and we have to pay the price afterwards. For example, there is a freeway interchange that was designed around a Little League baseball diamond. Every time I go through that interchange I'm reminded how dumb the design is.

Professionally, I think a person should listen to their feelings and if it doesn't seem right then just don't do it. I really feel for those who have to prostitute themselves to make an income. We probably all do this to some degree but hopefully it's just little things and one can get over it. "The customer is always right"... or are they? That's a whole 'nother topic.

Richard Crowley: "If I don't have buy-in and cooperation from all involved, I just wish them good luck and move on." Reply: Isn't the latest thinking that things are supposed to be a "team effort"?

Shaun: "BUT that our reputations are ALWAYS on the line." Reply: in this case I'm part of the family and my reputation has already been pretty well determined. Unfortunately. Our daughter was sitting there reading her book while I was playing the Beta version of the edited video last weekend. At the moment I'd like to clean up some more things in post and "get it out the door." I'll share a few copies to the Girls Choir Directors and work with them for the next time and hopefully next time the video and audio will be much improved.

Thank you everybody for your input and expertise. While this has been but just one small slice of a production the comments are immensely useful. Fortunately, I'm sure, there will be more opportunities to record the Girls Choir events and they have three main venues, this being one of them and the next event here is a year away. The other venue is a large room in a church and the third one is in a theater. The theater venue the Choir has a professional doing the work and no one else is allowed to film so that's good for the audience.
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Old August 28th, 2012, 03:42 PM   #17
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Re: How much applause to retain in recording?

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Originally Posted by John Nantz View Post
Isn't the latest thinking that things are supposed to be a "team effort"?
Exactly. And when they don't want to form a workable team, I leave them to it. I have plenty of opportunities to work with enthusiastic people without wasting my life arguing with fools.
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Old August 28th, 2012, 04:08 PM   #18
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Re: How much applause to retain in recording?

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Originally Posted by John Nantz View Post
Replies to comments:

....
Steve House: Weston Master V, if you bought one of those that kinda dates you, er.... us. Got mine just as the Master IV quit being sold. One of the things I liked about the IV was it the "Foot-Candles".

,,.
Have to correct myself ... it was the Weston Ranger 9 CDS meter that I had, bought in '69
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Old August 29th, 2012, 07:49 AM   #19
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Re: How much applause to retain in recording?

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Earlier I mentioned that the person I bought the ME-66 from had this M-Audio Pre in the package. This was about two years ago and I've yet to use it. It's an older model but looks like a decent component module to add a recorder to.

The next step, recording audio to a separate file, will take a lot of research and learning though. Here is either a link or a picture of it (depending on what DVinfo gives):

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/members/...me-point.html?

I'd be curious what kind of recorder to use with it though. This seems like it would be a lot of work to match the audio with the video. I've seen some pretty interesting digital clap boards.
John, I shoot choir concerts with some regularity, and I use a separate audio recorder for all of my video work. It is actually quite easy in post to sync camera scratch audio with the separate (and better quality) audio recording (Plural Eyes is one solution).

One factor that makes this a little difficult is the fact that a camera (and its on-board microphone) is positioned away from the choir, whereas your (properly positioned) microphones are right in front of the choir. The camera audio records a slight delay (becuase of its distance from the sound source) and all kinds of echo. In the past, I've wrestled even with Plural Eyes to sync audio of this nature.

My solution is to pass the audio through my recorder via its outputs into the camera. In that way, the recorder and camera record exactly the same audio signal; the latter is of much lower quality and compressed, of course. Still, this makes audio sync in post a no-brainer.

You're using a Mobile Pre, so that requires a computer to actually record. I have no idea what the Mobile Pre offers in terms of outputs, so your mileage might vary with the procedure I outlined above.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 12:40 AM   #20
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Re: How much applause to retain in recording?

Steven - this is all REALLY HELPFUL information. I must say, getting this from someone who went through a lot of work to come up with a good workflow makes this mean a lot. I especially like your statement "this makes audio sync in post a no-brainer." That's my kind of work! (ha ha)

Seriously, since I read your post I've spent the better part of the day going through the M-Audio web site to find out information about this unit, and got sidetracked several times. Apparently people have burned out or fried parts of it and they don't give out the circuit diagram nor will tell anybody what the parts are. They also seem to charge a lot of repair. Anyway, that's an aside.

The main page about the M-AudioPre USB is this one, FAQ's: USB Audio Series FAQ's - Answers to commonly asked questions

Talk about a long list! I spent quite a bit of time reading some of these and just one of the FAQ's about Mac OS X, say .6 or Lion, the laundry list of things to adjust on the computer is pages long. I'm not sure I'm prepared for this. I'll be having a MacBook White that may become surplus and maybe I could dedicate it to this purpose. Plan B is to see if I can just run the signal into some kind of recorder.

Did an Internet search for Audio/video recorders and looked at some of them. Basically they were all integrated units with a mic built in. Here is one page from Sweetwater: Zoom Portable Recorders | Sweetwater.com

I've come across Plural Eyes that you mentioned a lot in Internet searches. I have to say I'm really in awe at how much technology many videographers use in order to create a product. The knowledge required is mindboggeling. We just finished watching the video "Moulin Rouge" last night on BD and while my wife was enjoying the singing and watching the movie I was looking at lighting, camera angles, how it was edited, and wondering how they did it! Sure, they had a huge staff but someone had to think of the idea and direct it all. Impressive.

"I use a separate audio recorder for all of my video work." - Reply: is it an integrated recorder+mic or just a recorder?

"It is actually quite easy in post to sync camera scratch audio with the separate (and better quality) audio recording (Plural Eyes is one solution)." Reply: I have a couple older Jay Rose books "Producing Great Sound for Digital Video" 2nd ed., and "Audio Postproduction for Digital Video", circa 2003, but still have a lot of useful information. I was using them a while back but will now revisit them to see what they have in this subject matter area.

"The camera audio records a slight delay (becuase of its distance from the sound source) and all kinds of echo. In the past, I've wrestled even with Plural Eyes to sync audio of this nature." Editorial Comment: This definitely sounds like a lot of work. After checking out this M-Audio pre to make sure it will work for me I'll be checking out recorders.

"My solution is to pass the audio through my recorder via its outputs into the camera." Question: If there is a separate mic, then this would provide the input for the recorder?

"In that way, the recorder and camera record exactly the same audio signal; the latter is of much lower quality and compressed, of course." Just to Clarify: then is the recorder wired to the camera while the video is being made?

"Still, this makes audio sync in post a no-brainer." Editorial Comment: My favorite statement!

"You're using a Mobile Pre, so that requires a computer to actually record. I have no idea what the Mobile Pre offers in terms of outputs, so your mileage might vary with the procedure I outlined above."
Here are a couple pictures:
Attached Thumbnails
How much applause to retain in recording?-screen-shot-2012-08-29-9.44.24-pm.png   How much applause to retain in recording?-screen-shot-2012-08-29-9.44.46-pm.png  


Last edited by John Nantz; August 30th, 2012 at 12:47 AM. Reason: spelling, and more spelling
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Old August 30th, 2012, 07:13 AM   #21
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Re: How much applause to retain in recording?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Nantz View Post
"I use a separate audio recorder for all of my video work." - Reply: is it an integrated recorder+mic or just a recorder?
John, in my case, I have a separate recorder, i.e., not integrated mic+recorder.

The important point I was trying to make is illustrated in two scenarios:

1. [mic]-->[recorder] [camera] OR

2. [mic]-->[recorder]-->[camera],

where "-->" means a cable. In scenario 2, everything is wired together and audio sync in post is easier since recorder and camera are laying down the same audio signal. It doesn't matter if the mic is external or integrated, though I suspect that the likelihood of balanced XLR outputs on a recorder will be on those without integrated microphones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Nantz View Post
"In that way, the recorder and camera record exactly the same audio signal; the latter is of much lower quality and compressed, of course." Just to Clarify: then is the recorder wired to the camera while the video is being made?
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Nantz View Post
"You're using a Mobile Pre, so that requires a computer to actually record. I have no idea what the Mobile Pre offers in terms of outputs, so your mileage might vary with the procedure I outlined above."
Here are a couple pictures:
Obviously, you have a USB out to the computer. You also have what looks like 1/4" stereo outputs, though I can't tell if those are balanced or not and what kind of levels they output -- line or microphone -- (and M-audio's website doesn't say). In the end, it may not matter: it sounds like your computer situation is not optimum, and fussing around with a laptop and software that may or may not work would be reason enough (for me) to completely forget the setup and just get a dedicated audio recorder and be done with it. Your money, however... ;)
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Old August 30th, 2012, 04:30 PM   #22
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Re: How much applause to retain in recording?

Steven - thanks very much for all the information. Looks like I have some homework to do but the 1/4-inch and mini jack outputs might put a crimp in the plan. I definitely like the KISS principle (Keep It Simple..) so in the meantime I'll do some research and keep my eyes open for an audio recorder.
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Old August 30th, 2012, 07:47 PM   #23
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Re: How much applause to retain in recording?

Jim, what camera are you shooting with? For many cameras with XLR inputs, the mic pre's will be just as good as those in the M-Audio. So if were planning on running cables back to your camera anyway, you might as well just run the mic cables back to your camera. If you're looking at a separate recorder there are several that are battery powered that have phantom power. Depending on your budget you can start up at the top looking at something like a Sound Devices 788T. If you only need 2 channels there are a lot of very affordable options. Many like the Zoom H4n. I've got a Tascam DR-680 that has a total of 8 channels, 4 XLR inputs. IMO that's one of the best deals out there.

It isn't as hard as you think to sync up sound from the a recorder and your camera. Plural Eyes makes it even easier. But I regularly do it for concerts and dance recitals where I"m syncing multiple cameras and two sound systems.

If you really find that you want to have what is recorded in the recorder also on the camera and you don't want to deal with wires you can always out put the mix from the recorder to a wireless and sent it to your camera for a scratch track to sync to.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 07:03 AM   #24
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Re: How much applause to retain in recording?

This would have seemed to be an ideal event to simply put a portable recorder with it's x/y mics on a stand in front - pleasant stereo, decent levels so no noise issues and a reasonably unobtrusive device from the audience's perspective.
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Old August 31st, 2012, 09:02 AM   #25
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Re: How much applause to retain in recording?

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This would have seemed to be an ideal event to simply put a portable recorder with it's x/y mics on a stand in front - pleasant stereo, decent levels so no noise issues and a reasonably unobtrusive device from the audience's perspective.
That's exactly what I do in many situations. One of the reasons I have my PCM-D50. Great internal mics and limiters so I can trust that it will give me something usable when left unattended.
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