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Old September 3rd, 2012, 03:25 PM   #31
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Re: If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?

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Actually was just reminiscing about some classic still equipment from the good old days of (gasp) film and wet-chemistry printing in an actual darkroom.
Yea.... we need to do that once in a while and it feels good.

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Old September 3rd, 2012, 03:52 PM   #32
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Re: If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?

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Originally Posted by Greg Bellotte View Post
I love Paul's quote "good audio is the absence of bad audio", but that certainly isn't the end of the story. And I guess you really have to be passionate about sound to be an audio guy as most are not willing to put in the multitude of little efforts that string together to make good sound. The medium does contain both pictures and sound, and I have always felt they both need to be good. Yes good sound is tedious sometimes, but no matter how good the pictures bad sound always seems to spoil them.
That is a nice quote, I like it too. Also the "... most are not willing to put in the multitude of little efforts that string together to make good sound." The devil is in the details.


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Originally Posted by Greg Bellotte View Post
So John, you've got quite the list of projects! Quite the difference from a few pals that can't ever think of anything to shoot... The advice i give out most frequently is about mic positioning. It's been said that a cheap mic near a sound source will ALWAYS sound better than an expensive mic far away. I'm a big fan of close micing most things. Once you have the "in your face" sound element cleanly its always easy to go back and add other ambient elements back in. This method gives a lot of control for creating a sum of exactly what you want to hear and nothing else, but yes it takes some time to layer it all up. In the old days it was always a dance to squeeze it all into 4 or 8 tracks and keep it synced up with the picture. GarageBand and Final Cut make it so much easier, add all the tracks you want and audio takes much less horsepower than video.
Yes, so many projects and so little time.

I'll take that "close micing" as good advice. I've actually started doing more of that recently as I came to realize from reading numerous posts that the long shotgun isn't intended to be used from 40 feet (12 meters for the international community) away.

Just recently I came across some recommended distances for various types of mics and was actually surprised how close the shotgun is recommended to be. I had no idea.

Layering: I haven't got into this area yet. I have layered some music with voice and some sound effects (lightning bolt sound) in a kids magician's act video but that's about it. At the moment I'm trying to deal pretty much with what seems to be the basics but there is such a thing as multitasking and not forgetting to think about the idea.

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Originally Posted by Greg Bellotte View Post
I think you'll find that the Rode SVM will be a little too sensitive to place close to the piano and may overload, or overload your camera input. The ME64 on a boom will probably work fine, just open the lid and point it down into the strings. ..... If you have a dynamic mic to try you may find it has better low end. I never think of a mic as being "wrong" for a purpose, rather some just sound much better than others in a given location.
Just last night I did a short shoot combination "test" with the ME-64 on the upright piano but haven't got around to editing it yet. Guess I'm spending too much time writing here! I didn't open the top of the piano because there was too much stuff on top and it was easier to just boom it about 3-feet (~1 meter) over the keyboard. I'm interested in how it will sound. I suspect probably a little muddy or muffled without direct access to the strings.

Dynamic mic: I really need more input on types of mics to use for various purposes. I've been reading a lot but it's just overwhelming. And then everything seems to be colored by opinions so I have to sort through that too.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 03:59 PM   #33
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Re: If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?

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Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson
...I've never seen anybody ask about compression, limiting, graphic vs parametric eq, soundstage and panning, delay and reverberation, let alone the other audio sweetening tricks.

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Originally Posted by Renton Maclachlan View Post
Well...I'd like to know about some of these things but don't know the questions to ask...
Thats MY problem TOO!

If two of us have this problem I'm sure there are others.

Maybe an expanded "Audio" section could help?

And I've got other audio areas that fall into the "don't know the questions to ask" realm.
What about a sub-section "Audio for Dummies" (my wife hates that title!). But that's kinda where I'm at.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 04:11 PM   #34
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Re: If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?

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Maybe an expanded "Audio" section could help?
There is so little traffic here now, that would just further fragment it. Suggest participating in more than just this forum if you want to see more discussion of audio in general and production audio specifically.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 04:34 PM   #35
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Re: If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?

I wonder what percentage of members here do any audio recording on its own, whether for CD production, broadcast/internet/hospital/school radio, church services, musical groups/choirs etc or even just personal interest?

Obviously at least a few of the well respected regulars in the audio forum have interest and experience (some at a very high level) in this area. It informs (or rather should inform!) our approach to audio in video production.

But I will plead guilty as well to having done things in "audio for video" that I would not have done in "audio for audio."
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Old September 4th, 2012, 03:59 AM   #36
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Re: If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?

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Originally Posted by Richard Crowley View Post
The basics of getting good sound are simpler than getting good video.
Really?

I would have said it was the other way round - getting good video is easier than getting good sound.

All you have to do is point a camera and make sure the lighting is correct.

You don't have to understand microphone polar-patterns, the inverse-square law, room acoustics, standing waves, boundary effects, proximity effect, distortion, RF theory, the importance of IM-free frequencies, body absorption, fitting mics without clothing rustle, etc., etc.........

No - video is much easier.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 04:32 AM   #37
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Re: If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?

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Originally Posted by John Nantz View Post
My immediate projects:

Piano Recording, string instrument.
Video record some piano playing on both an upright and a grand. The musician is almost 12 years old and the pianos are both in homes. This isn't a performance situation as in a recital so multiple takes and sound tests can be done. I just acquired a used mic stand with a boom so this can be used with one of my mics. However, musicians have their own ideas as to what mics provide good sound reproduction, but the dilema is to find a good bang-for-the-buck mic and then the next step is to figure out how to properly use it.
This is my speciality.

A grand piano normally needs omni mics or you lose the bottom octave.

My starting position is a pair of omnis about 20cm apart at about ear height about 2 metres from the piano.

I will then adjust to suit the piano, the work and the room.

You can normally have mics in shot when videoing a grand as the sound is so important. Where the mics are in view (eg: video or a live concert) I would use a pair of Sennheiser MHK 8020 heads on a custom stereo bar on a Sennheiser thin stand - this goes virtually invisible at a concert and is unobtrusive on video.

This is the mics on the stand

This is a close-up of the mics.

For recording without video I would use the Gefell M221, Sennheiser MKH 20 or 8020, or Neumann KM 131-D.

If the mics *have* to be invisible, then boundary mics are the best - either a couple of DPA 4060 or Sennheiser MKE 1 or 2 stuck to the inside of the lid or a pair of omni SDC mics in a Turtle underneath the piano. Both these work well.

An upright needs a different technique - normally away from a wall and microphones behind the piano - this way you can get good video and good sound without seeing the microphones.

I hope this helps.
Attached Thumbnails
If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?-mkh-8020-stereo-stand.jpg   If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?-mkh-8020-stereo-stand-head-3.jpg  

If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?-turtle-pair.jpg  
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Old September 4th, 2012, 04:35 AM   #38
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Re: If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?

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Originally Posted by Colin McDonald View Post
I wonder what percentage of members here do any audio recording on its own, whether for CD production, broadcast/internet/hospital/school radio, church services, musical groups/choirs etc or even just personal interest?
Yes - I do - mainly for CD release, though I have done radio broadcasting (LBC in London in the late 1970's) as well and some odds and ends for pleasure.


So I have recorded choirs, orchestras, opera, solo piano, interviews, radio documentaries, and even wildlife - all without a camera in sight.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 08:11 AM   #39
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Re: If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?

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Originally Posted by John Nantz View Post
What about a sub-section "Audio for Dummies" (my wife hates that title!). But that's kinda where I'm at.
If you think that's where you're at, then I suggest you start by reading a few good books. I've never seen any "Dummies" audio books (although I've never looked).

However, Jay Rose has written some excellent books which can be comprehended by beginners, yet have some fairly advanced content. At one time, I believe, they could be found on Amazon. If not there, try Google. (If you still don't find them, let me know, I should have contact info for Jay.) Of course technology evolves fast, so any print book might not cover the very latest models of equipment. But the basic concepts are there, and are explained well.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 11:32 AM   #40
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Re: If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Nantz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson
...I've never seen anybody ask about compression, limiting, graphic vs parametric eq, soundstage and panning, delay and reverberation, let alone the other audio sweetening tricks.

Thats MY problem TOO!

If two of us have this problem I'm sure there are others.

Maybe an expanded "Audio" section could help?

And I've got other audio areas that fall into the "don't know the questions to ask" realm.
What about a sub-section "Audio for Dummies" (my wife hates that title!). But that's kinda where I'm at.
I confess, I teach a college post-production audio class. And I would find it very hard to teach it via text, or even in a robust online learning platform. The key concepts need to be presented with diagrams, sound samples, demonstrations, q&a, student practice, ear training, and repetition until understood and mastery is demonstrated by students.

I too recommend Jay Rose's books, he does a great job with them and the included CDs.

But, please do ask your questions about those subjects, and if you don't know what question to ask, sometimes you can describe what you're doing and what the results are, instead.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 02:08 PM   #41
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Re: If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?

I started out doing audio for audio several decades before ever getting into video. I still record as much audio for audio as audio for video. I got into video through audio and now have a mobile digital HD multi-camera live-switch production unit and assembling a second. As a video producer it is a challenge to find good, competent audio people who understand the video world.

I must say that I don't know anyone who really has significant experience with both audio and video who would agree with the notion that "video is easier".

Last edited by Richard Crowley; September 4th, 2012 at 09:09 PM.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 03:03 PM   #42
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Re: If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?

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Originally Posted by Richard Crowley View Post
The basics of getting good sound are simpler than getting good video.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post

I would have said it was the other way round - getting good video is easier than getting good sound.
Nah - it's lighting that's easy. You just blast the subject with enough watts to keep the camera happy, and as long as the luminaires don't hum too much, you're sorted.

(Puts on hard hat and retires to hurricane refuge).
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Old September 4th, 2012, 04:36 PM   #43
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Re: If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?

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Originally Posted by Richard Crowley View Post
There is so little traffic here now, that would just further fragment it. Suggest participating in more than just this forum if you want to see more discussion of audio in general and production audio specifically.
Richard - I don't know if this is typical or not, but I checked a couple other forum locations for traffic just prior to writing this. "Tapeless Video Recording Solutions" had 11 viewing and "Support Your Local Camera" had 16 viewing, for a total of 27 for these two forums that have sub forums. Just prior to me logging into All Things Audio" there were 26 viewing then add me and that makes 27 viewing. Doing some math then, this forum with no sub forums has as many viewing it as the other two combined.

It would be interesting to see how the numbers compare over time and it would also be interesting to know if there would be an uptick in participants if the Audio forum had a few sub forums.

Since it was mentioned that there are some "Audio for Video" forums elsewhere on the Internet, yesterday I spent some time surfing to see what I could find. While I found a huge number of Audio forums it turned out that they supported communities other than what I'm looking for, namely musicians, audiofiles, and the like. I did find some interesting sites but ran out of time.

I'm not giving up looking, though, but I am getting enough support here with suggestions to keep me busy so that's a real plus. Just did some takes yesterday with the upright piano and boom mic and after viewing them decided to do a few more this morning (whether it needed it or not).

Last edited by John Nantz; September 4th, 2012 at 04:39 PM. Reason: added in parentheses
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Old September 4th, 2012, 05:12 PM   #44
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Re: If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?

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Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
This is my speciality.
Bingo! Thanks John, this is the kind of thing that is really helpful. After reading your post yesterday I went and got my gear set up on the upright then called for the talent to play me some numbers. I did over a dozen takes using various setting combinations then went to examine them using Final Cut Pro X.

After reviewing the takes I deleted five of them right off then started examining the rest. There were two main variables and they were both the two gain controls on the JuicedLink pre. It has a Low, Medium, and High gain setting slider switch and a gain control knob. I adjusted both of these but, unfortunately, didn't write down when I used the switch settings.

Reviewing the takes showed areas where there was distortion that was both audible and visible on the FCPX VU meter. This morning I went back and did a new setup and some more takes. This time, though, I tilted the top of the piano up so the mic could hear the treble strings better. In the picture it looks like the mic is pointed toward the bass side but it isn't, it's pointed toward the treble side.

Once I get it edited I'd like to post a video clip here but I don't think the audio would play that well.

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Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
An upright needs a different technique - normally away from a wall and microphones behind the piano - this way you can get good video and good sound without seeing the microphones.I hope this helps.
Even though I didn't comment on the middle part of the post I am taking it in. Our upright is open in the back but due to time and space limitations I just did the take where it was at. The next time my talented talent comes to visit I'll pull it away from the wall and do a proper lighting and mic-ing setup.

Thanks very much for all your input. Oh, and that's the ME-64 on the boom.

P.S. That's Mozart's picture as a young lad at the piano hanging on the wall.
P.S. #2: That's an appropriate name for the Tortoise mics!
Attached Thumbnails
If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?-000_1776.jpg  

Last edited by John Nantz; September 4th, 2012 at 11:38 PM. Reason: adding Mozart's picture & spelling. You don't "title" the top, you Tilt it.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 05:32 PM   #45
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Re: If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?

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Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum View Post
I confess, I teach a college post-production audio class. And I would find it very hard to teach it via text, or even in a robust online learning platform. The key concepts need to be presented with diagrams, sound samples, demonstrations, q&a, student practice, ear training, and repetition until understood and mastery is demonstrated by students.
Sounds like it it would be an interesting class because I noted you didn't mention EXAMS! (Yea!)

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Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum View Post
I too recommend Jay Rose's books, he does a great job with them and the included CDs.
I've got two of his books and one even has a bookmark in it when I took the picture.

One nice thing about physics is it doesn't tend to change much. Technique and technology is not so static.
Attached Thumbnails
If 2/3rds of good video is audio, how come there is only one Audio section?-000_1778.jpg  

Last edited by John Nantz; September 4th, 2012 at 05:34 PM. Reason: dragging and dropping a picture doesn't seem to work.
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