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Old December 26th, 2012, 04:04 PM   #1
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Shure mixer connected to Canon HV 30 camcorder

Hello everyone.

Now that I've got somewhat of a handle on the input side of things between my mic (AT 822stereo) via the right cables, which are on their way, I'd like to touch on the output side of things. So if you'll indulge me...

First, I am also well into Jay Rose's audio book, and there is lots of great information there that, in addition to here, will help out the quality and understanding of my own audio practices.

My intention is to find the best solution to hook up the Shure FP 33 mixer to a Canon Hv30 camcorder for recording audio. If you have any questions for me I can respond to them as best as I can as we go along.

For connections, I obviously won't be connecting the L and R outs from mixer to the camera, since the camera takes a 1/8" mini pin connector (three pole I think). Unless you think there is a adaptor and that's the way to go.

The mixer also has a "Tape Out" as well, also mini pin. And then there are the headphone female out of which there is a 1/8 mini and 1/4" TRS.

So how would you guys go from the mixer to the camcorder?

I don't believe the HV30 has an auto gain switch, but I know that you can set the levels for sound manually and lock them, if that's any help. There is also a menu item you can set for "Attenuation on/off", but not sure which to set that using the set-up above.

If you guys recommend either cabling out from the headphone monitor on mixer or the tape out on the mixer, both 1/8" mini, would I use a stereo plug/cable from mixer to stereo plug input on the camera?

Regardless of how I cable this thing, would I use the mixer tone generator to set the level on the camcorder? On this I'm guessing yes, so that everything is at the same level.

I leave it here. If you have any insights or have used an HV30 connected in some fashion, please let me know your thoughts. And if you have any questions I can answer.

On a final note, When I've work on semi pro-pro camera set ups, running the xlrs from mixer to the xlrs into the camera were pretty straight forward. The question is how the HV30 will play with a professional piece of audio equipment like a mixer.

Thanks.

Jonathan
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Old December 26th, 2012, 04:54 PM   #2
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Re: Shure mixer connected to Canon HV 30 camcorder

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Levin View Post
...My intention is to find the best solution to hook up the Shure FP 33 mixer to a Canon Hv30 camcorder for recording audio....For connections, I obviously won't be connecting the L and R outs from mixer to the camera, since the camera takes a 1/8" mini pin connector (three pole I think). Unless you think there is a adaptor and that's the way to go.
If you will ONLY be using your HV30 camcorder with the Shure FP33 mixer, then you probably don't need an adapter cable. But if you ever want to plug ANY microphone directly into your HV30, then you will need the same kind of adapter cable that you would use to connect the FP33 to the HV30.

Quote:
The mixer also has a "Tape Out" as well, also mini pin. And then there are the headphone female out of which there is a 1/8 mini and 1/4" TRS....So how would you guys go from the mixer to the camcorder?
The "TapeOut" is designed specifically to feed camcorders like the HV30. I can't think of any reason to use any other output from the FP33.

Quote:
I don't believe the HV30 has an auto gain switch, but I know that you can set the levels for sound manually and lock them, if that's any help.
If you can "set the sound levels manually and lock them", then you HAVE an auto gain switch by definition. If you can lock the audio gain, then you are turning OFF the auto gain.

Quote:
There is also a menu item you can set for "Attenuation on/off", but not sure which to set that using the set-up above.
You may need to use this feature if the output from the FP33 is too high.

Quote:
If you guys recommend either cabling out from the headphone monitor on mixer or the tape out on the mixer, both 1/8" mini, would I use a stereo plug/cable from mixer to stereo plug input on the camera?
Since the "TAPE OUT" is specifically designed for this use, it would seem foolish to try to use anything else.

You would need a simple cable with a 3.5mm TRS ("stereo") connector at each end. RadioShack sells cables like these in several colors(!) For example: Catalog #: 42-961 for $4

NOTE: Unless it is already done to your unit, the FP33 must be modified internally to output MIC-LEVEL to that connector. The instructions to do this are in the User Guide at the top of page 9. You MUST make this signal mic-level or it will NOT work with your HV30. THIS IS MANDATORY, not an option. If you don't/can't do this, then you must use the XLR outputs (with the appropriate adapter cable) set to mic-level.

Quote:
Regardless of how I cable this thing, would I use the mixer tone generator to set the level on the camcorder? On this I'm guessing yes, so that everything is at the same level.
I don't remember what the audio arrangement is on the HV30. If you have manual level adjustments on the camcorder, AND if you have an audio level indication on the camcorder, then yes, the tone generator will make it easier to set and match the levels between the mixer and the camcorder. But many of us do this without a tone generator, so that isn't a show-stopper.
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Old December 26th, 2012, 05:44 PM   #3
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Re: Shure mixer connected to Canon HV 30 camcorder

I've got the HV20 and HV40. As well as the on board mic, there's only an external stereo mic input on this series of cams, no line input for any mixers.

As Richard said, switch the Shures output to mic, and plug its 'tape out' to your HV30 external mic in. Use as short a cable as you can.

You can use its tone oscillator to match your HV30s input level. There's more about this in the HV30 manual and in general, in your Jay Rose book.

For voice recording, use the Shures limiter to keep the levels in check and monitor with headphones from the HV30, there should be enough level.
Practise practise Johnathon :)

Never switch the 48V phantom power 'on' until you connect all your 48V mics to the mixer. Do the reverse when you're finished your session.

Cheers.
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Old December 26th, 2012, 05:53 PM   #4
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Re: Shure mixer connected to Canon HV 30 camcorder

Richard. Thanks for all that!

So far it seems that the proper way to go is from the tape out to the mic in, if the mixer is set up to handle mic level per your note. I'll check that out.

How about this scenerio: I actually have a short cable/adapter that has a female xlr at one end, and the stereo mini pin at the other. Could I plug this into either the left or right out on the mixer (set tor mic level), connect to the HV30?

My goal is to get a left and right soundtrack from the camcorder.

And is this nuts? How about a custom adapter: two female xlr (left and right on mixer) to mini pin stereo other end. Or would I be able to get left and right sound out from cmcorder using the single xlr from either L or R on mixer to camera?

And lastly, I'm assuming that if I wanted to do something like record to HD on a laptop, the same rules apply?

Always appreciate your help.

Best to you.

Jonathan
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Old December 26th, 2012, 06:27 PM   #5
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Re: Shure mixer connected to Canon HV 30 camcorder

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Levin View Post
How about this scenerio: I actually have a short cable/adapter that has a female xlr at one end, and the stereo mini pin at the other. Could I plug this into either the left or right out on the mixer (set tor mic level), connect to the HV30?
Probably NOT! Remember, the 3.5mm mic input on your camcorder is STEREO UNBALANCED, and the XLR out of the mixer (either one of them) is MONAURAL BALANCED. These are NOT compatible! You must have a special adapter/cable wired to take the balanced XLR source and feed the unbalanced stereo input of your camcorder. Of course, this would the the same adapter/cable you would use to just plug a conventional monaural microphone directly into the camcorder.

And this is NOT the same as a special XLR cable/adapter made for a stereo microphone.

Quote:
My goal is to get a left and right soundtrack from the camcorder.
Yes, understood. You can use either a 3.5mm cable from the TAPE OUT of the mixer to the mic input of your camcorder, or a special Y-cable (sort of the opposite of what you need for your stereo mic) to come from two monaural XLR outputs to a stereo unbalanced 3.5mm mini-phone input.

Quote:
And is this nuts? How about a custom adapter: two female xlr (left and right on mixer) to mini pin stereo other end.
Yes, that is exactly what you need if you want to use the big, clunky XLR connectors. But since you have a nice 3.5mm stereo mini-phone TAPE OUT from your mixer, dunno why you would want to mess with a big, bulky, awkward dual XLR to 3.5mm cable/adapter?

Quote:
Or would I be able to get left and right sound out from cmcorder using the single xlr from either L or R on mixer to camera?
NO. The XLR outputs on the the mixer are balanced monaural. (That is why there are two of them, one for Left and one for Right). Be advised that 99.5% of all audio XLR connections are balanced monaural. Don't be confused by the non-standard XLR connection on your stereo microphone. It is BY FAR an exception and NOT typical of audio XLR connections!

Quote:
And lastly, I'm assuming that if I wanted to do something like record to HD on a laptop, the same rules apply?
No. (Depending on what connection you are talking about to your laptop). If your laptop has a STEREO audio input (mic level or line level) then yes this might work. But except for a few odd Mac notebooks, it is EXTRAORDINARILY RARE to find a stereo audio INPUT on a laptop. Now, you can use a little USB audio adapter that has stereo in and out and those are great. But the only audio input most laptop computers have is a MONAURAL microphone input (which is also wired in a "non-standard" way).
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Old December 26th, 2012, 08:50 PM   #6
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Re: Shure mixer connected to Canon HV 30 camcorder

Once had to hook up an HV30 to the audio output of an ac-powered mixer. Found that when the HV30 was used with the canon ac adapter, I got a ground loop (hum). Didn't do this when run on battery power, however. Might apply in your situation...
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Old December 26th, 2012, 09:06 PM   #7
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Re: Shure mixer connected to Canon HV 30 camcorder

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Originally Posted by Battle Vaughan View Post
Once had to hook up an HV30 to the audio output of an ac-powered mixer. Found that when the HV30 was used with the canon ac adapter, I got a ground loop (hum). Didn't do this when run on battery power, however. Might apply in your situation...
Yes lots of smaller (consumer) camcorders and MOST laptop computers are NOTORIOUS for their ground loop (and power supply horrible noise) when used with their AC "brick" adapters.
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Old December 26th, 2012, 10:25 PM   #8
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Re: Shure mixer connected to Canon HV 30 camcorder

The tape out of the FP33 is line level. Switching the XLR inputs or outputs to mic level doesn't change that. Your camera is mic level so you have an impedance mis-match. The line level will have to be padded.

A Juicedlink box is the better choice over the FP33 in this case.
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Old December 26th, 2012, 10:27 PM   #9
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Re: Shure mixer connected to Canon HV 30 camcorder

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Originally Posted by Les Wilson View Post
The tape out of the FP33 is line level. Switching the XLR inputs or outputs to mic level doesn't change that. Your camera is mic level so you have an impedance mis-match. THe line level witll have to be padded.

A Juicedlink box is the better choice over the FP33 in this case.
The Shure FP33 has built-in provision to switch the TAPE OUT to mic-level. (See user manual page 9)
Levels have nothing to do with impedance. The FP33 has sufficiently low output impedance that there is no issue here.
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Old December 26th, 2012, 10:46 PM   #10
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Re: Shure mixer connected to Canon HV 30 camcorder

Awesome. Didn't know that. Hope it's useful someday. Thanks.
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Old December 27th, 2012, 10:32 AM   #11
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Re: Shure mixer connected to Canon HV 30 camcorder

Alan, I must have been type my reply whn yours came in. The Jay Rose book is really helpfull. I still reading and re-reading the first few chapters that deals with some math stuff, plus I'm a slow leaarner.

I will get the shortest cable possible for between the mixer and camera, since both will be near me when I shoot.

And yes, practice, practice, practice. Read. Read. Read. I'm using my slow time, between Christmas and Memorial Day, to work through all this ;-}

And Richard, thanks again. Tape out to camera is the way to go then. Can I ask a you, is it just standard that the mic input on the HV30 or most camcorders that the input is un-balanced. I'm looking at page 103 in the Canon manual in the spec for Mic "3.5mm stereo minijack, -57dBV (with 600 ohm microphone) 5 kohms or more". I could be so new to this that the answer is right there and I just don't know it.

Camera manuals sure don't help a whole lot, it seems.

And about the laptop situation, once again I forgot what was sitting right in front of me, my M-Audio Fastrack Pro interface. I think for my VO only work, my practices will be to use that.

I will check out page 9 of the FP33 manual. Not certain if that is a dip switch setting or if it involves soldiering something. But I'll look into that today.

As far as using AC power, I use that exclusively if I know I'm going to conduct a stationary interview. I have not had any problem (i don't think, but then again, want to go from aceptable audo to a least good audio).

Is the noise issue something that occurs mostly when a camcorder is connected to mixer? And I'm assuming this is not an issue with prosumer units that have balanced input (xlr) Or just use the camera in battery mode. Thanks Battle.

Thanks fellas.

Jonathan
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Old December 27th, 2012, 11:08 AM   #12
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Re: Shure mixer connected to Canon HV 30 camcorder

Quote: Is the noise issue something that occurs mostly when a camcorder is connected to mixer? And I'm assuming this is not an issue with prosumer units that have balanced input (xlr) Or just use the camera in battery mode. Thanks Battle.

A ground loop occurs when there is a voltage difference between two grounds, as I understand it -- Richard will probably have a better explanation --- but there's a small voltage signal existing between the ground side of your camera's ac adapter and the ground side of your audio input's ac power supply that causes the hum. If you eliminate one or the other ac source, the hum goes away. We had to run the camera on battery to eliminate the problem.

(Aside) Personal to Richard C, are you the same Richard Crowley I went to college with in Memphis in the 60's by any chance? We were both into stills and 16mm film then...
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Old December 27th, 2012, 11:19 AM   #13
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Re: Shure mixer connected to Canon HV 30 camcorder

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Levin View Post
... is it just standard that the mic input on the HV30 or most camcorders that the input is un-balanced. I'm looking at page 103 in the Canon manual in the spec for Mic "3.5mm stereo minijack, -57dBV (with 600 ohm microphone) 5 kohms or more". I could be so new to this that the answer is right there and I just don't know it.
Unless the mic connector is a 3-pin XLR, it is unbalanced. And from your AT stereo mic you realize that even a 3-pin XLR does not mean balanced, either in rare cases.

Quote:
Camera manuals sure don't help a whole lot, it seems.
You have to know how to read them. Or perhaps you need to understand how balanced and unbalanced work. The simplest rule is that it takes TWO wires/pins for a balanced signal (PLUS the ground), where an unbalanced signal takes only ONE wire/pin. If you have a 3-terminal mini-phone connector, and it has stereo on it, there is no way in our known universe to get balanced out of that. You need 5 terminals/wires/pins to get stereo balanced (2 channels x 2 wires each) + ground. The newer (current) version of that AT stereo microphone uses a 5-pin XLR connector so that it has Left Balanced (2 pins), Right Balanced (2 more pins) plus ground (the 5th pin).

Quote:
I will check out page 9 of the FP33 manual. Not certain if that is a dip switch setting or if it involves soldiering something. But I'll look into that today.
It does appear to require minor surgery on the internal PC board. If you aren't up to doing that yourself, it should be an "outpatient procedure" that could be done by anyone handy with a soldering iron.

Quote:
As far as using AC power, I use that exclusively if I know I'm going to conduct a stationary interview. I have not had any problem (i don't think, but then again, want to go from aceptable audo to a least good audio).

Is the noise issue something that occurs mostly when a camcorder is connected to mixer? And I'm assuming this is not an issue with prosumer units that have balanced input (xlr) Or just use the camera in battery mode.
I believe as long as you are operating the mixer on internal batteries, you won't run into the noise problem. The noise comes from ground loops when connected to other power-mains powered equipment.
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Old December 27th, 2012, 11:29 AM   #14
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Re: Shure mixer connected to Canon HV 30 camcorder

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Originally Posted by Battle Vaughan View Post
(Aside) Personal to Richard C, are you the same Richard Crowley I went to college with in Memphis in the 60's by any chance? We were both into stills and 16mm film then...
Nope. I was in college in the 60's, but I've never been to Tennessee. However I have ancestors (and likely extended relatives) in Tennessee and Texas, so they could be related.
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Old December 27th, 2012, 11:37 AM   #15
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Re: Shure mixer connected to Canon HV 30 camcorder

"I believe as long as you are operating the mixer on internal batteries, you won't run into the noise problem. The noise comes from ground loops when connected to other power-mains powered equipment.
+1
Additionally, ground-loops can usually be avoided by having the interconnected audio/video gear plugged into the same circuit. Field production audio gear draws very little power so tripping a breaker should not be problem... Obviously, lights should be distributed on separate circuits accordingly.
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