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Old May 15th, 2013, 03:00 PM   #16
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Re: Simiplest Lip-sync equipment?

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Originally Posted by Garrett Low View Post
Gregg, what is the reason the artist does not want to use some form of isolated listening? If it is that they won't be able to hear themselves playing, I think that is has already been addressed that they will be able to hear themselves play along with the first recorded track.

From working with actors and musicians I know that everyone of them has their own particular desires and way of performing. Just curious about this one.
This is a very valid question and having been audio engineering for more than 30 years, I have come across many musicians who were very unhappy with the idea of working with headphones. This is usually due to a lack of experience of working that way, or not using high quality equipment and competent engineers.

If their unwillingness is due to a purist stance, then I would argue that recording a piano duet without a second pianist is moving well away from a purist recording.

My own experience is that working for a short time with a properly mixed sound and good quality studio headphones, will quickly ease their fears. This will be especially true if they feel that they will not be able to hear their live piano properly. Again drawing on my own experience, I have found that many musicians with the no headphone view, frequently quickly start to prefer it as it enables them to totally focus on the music.

Any reasonable 4 track recorder will enable you to record two tracks, then play them back whilst recording a further stereo pair, with a headphone out to monitor both. A more sophisticated model with a decent mixing section will enable the mix in the headphones to be set up at whatever levels and mix the performer requires.

Perhaps a chat to find why the musician doesn't like headphones and a reassuring explanation of the advantages might solve your problem.

Roger
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Old May 15th, 2013, 03:04 PM   #17
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Re: Simiplest Lip-sync equipment?

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Originally Posted by Garrett Low View Post
Gregg, what is the reason the artist does not want to use some form of isolated listening? If it is that they won't be able to hear themselves playing, I think that is has already been addressed that they will be able to hear themselves play along with the first recorded track.

From working with actors and musicians I know that everyone of them has their own particular desires and way of performing. Just curious about this one.
I second Garret's question. Since listening on headphones while playing their own parts is a very common practice - one might even say the normal practice - for professional musicians doing multitrack recording in the studio, it seems very odd that this performer would refuse to do it.

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Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel View Post
This is a very valid question and having been audio engineering for more than 30 years, I have come across many musicians who were very unhappy with the idea of working with headphones. This is usually due to a lack of experience of working that way, or not using high quality equipment and competent engineers.

If their unwillingness is due to a purist stance, then I would argue that recording a piano duet without a second pianist is moving well away from a purist recording.

My own experience is that working for a short time with a properly mixed sound and good quality studio headphones, will quickly ease their fears. This will be especially true if they feel that they will not be able to hear their live piano properly. Again drawing on my own experience, I have found that many musicians with the no headphone view, frequently quickly start to prefer it as it enables them to totally focus on the music....

Roger
In that vein, this morning I just happened to be watching a video of a recording session with Yo Yo Ma and Chris Botti ... virtualy all the musicians in the ensemble were wearing phones. Botti was even in a sound booth - no phones would have meant he would have been unable to hear the other musicians in the group at all.
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Old May 19th, 2013, 09:19 AM   #18
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Re: Simplest Lip-sync equipment?

Garrett, the artist isn't willing to use earphone/earbud playback because she is not comfortable trying that. This is someone who was university educated as a classical pianist, who is past 70 years old. She is used to playing in a strictly non-electronic setting, listening with open ears to the performance, and achieving balance between herself and the other pianist (when playing duets) with open ears. She is not willing to try anything that blocks or covers her ears. In fact, she is not accustomed to recording at all. I imagine that she has never worn headphones in her life. The idea makes her uncomfortable and I will not try to get her to change her mind, even if it makes my job a little more difficult.

I respect that position. I don't feel it's my job to re-train someone who has been playing classical music for over 50 years. It's my job to get the best possible archival recording of what the performer is willing to do... period.

I don't think this is necessarily a "purist stance," it's a matter of comfort. I believe that once a performer is outside his or her "comfort zone," the performance will suffer. I remember once recording a vocal performance at a nursing home. There were multiple sonalert-type beepers going on and off all over the room, throughout the concert, as people had problems with their oxygen tanks, heart monitors, etc. It was a real nightmare, and obviously the singers had great difficulty keeping the performance together. The potential situation with my pianist is not nearly that distracting, of course, but it's still a matter of concentration and comfort.

Just the idea of playing against a recorded track is enough of a challenge: all the visual cues that two pianists normally exchange during duet playing will be non-existent. Classical piano isn't played to a metronome or a click track... there are subtle changes of tempo and changes of expression going on throughout every composition, which are communicated between performers by visual cues, head nods, and other subtle body language. All of that will be missing. So trying to match the "second piano" part to a pre-recorded "first piano" part, without any of that non-audible communication, will already be a big challenge. I am absolutely unwilling to add to that difficulty by imposing headphones or earbuds on the artist.

Imagine, for example, if you'd been driving for 50 years, the way we all do. Then suddenly someone painted all the windows in you car solid black, and gave you a few video monitors for navigation. You might be willing to try driving that way, and you might not crash. But I'll bet your driving would not flow nearly as smoothly as if you were driving with clear windows. In time, you might even learn to drive comfortably and well with video monitors. But the first few trips would be pretty stressful and unpleasant. You would not want your driving "performance" to be preserved for posterity as an example of your best driving. I see that as being very analagous to what this pianist would face wearing earphones or earbuds.

Now, having said all the above for the sake of enlightening everyone as to the psychology of the situation, please let me save a lot of unnecessary typing. I reiterate that I am not going to try to "re-train" or "re-condition" this performer. I have been asked to consider this project with loudspeaker playback, and that's what I'm going to do. I asked a technical question here; I understand the acoustical difficulties; I appreciate the technical answers. But I am not looking for an amateur psychological approach. So honestly, folks, any further discussion about "why" will not benefit me, will not move the project forward, and will probably not receive any further response from me.

Regards to all.
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Old May 19th, 2013, 10:18 AM   #19
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Re: Simplest Lip-sync equipment?

Sorry Garrett - but the pianist I'm recording cannot play properly at the standard required without hearing the instrument. No doubt if he tried and got used to it, he probably could - but musicians of their capability have very acute hearing. Blocking their ears is like doing a visual task with one eye closed.

We are talking about people who will have the piano tuned to Bach's original temperament because it doesn't sound right on modern tuning. Slapping a big pair of headphones on these people just doesn't work.

Hence my small speakers on stands approach. For classical piano, it's more common for a more distant recording setup. I use a stereo microphone with cardioid or fig-8 patterns and the top capsule spins through 90 degrees to set the width. If you need to overdub, then close mics give more isolation.
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Old May 19th, 2013, 01:28 PM   #20
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Re: Simplest Lip-sync equipment?

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Originally Posted by Greg Miller View Post
Now, having said all the above for the sake of enlightening everyone as to the psychology of the situation, please let me save a lot of unnecessary typing. I reiterate that I am not going to try to "re-train" or "re-condition" this performer. I have been asked to consider this project with loudspeaker playback, and that's what I'm going to do. I asked a technical question here; I understand the acoustical difficulties; I appreciate the technical answers. But I am not looking for an amateur psychological approach. So honestly, folks, any further discussion about "why" will not benefit me, will not move the project forward, and will probably not receive any further response from me.
Greg, I cannot speak for anyone else but you have completely misunderstood the root of my question. You say you've asked for technical answers. you received several. But, your statement about "amateur psychological approach" indicates to me that you have ignored a very important aspect of working with artists. Understanding the reasons for ones resistance to a given solution is one of the steps to finding an acceptable solution and is part of your responsibility.

Also, I understand that you don't have any background on many of the other people on this forum so you couldn't know where I'm coming from, I have a fair amount of background in music. Mostly classical so I have a bit more than just a tad bit of understanding of the mentality of classical musicians. I have a good understanding and appreciation for what it takes to perform at an elite level. I also have a fair amount of personal experience working with artists who have very particular demands, but more importantly I have had the rare opportunity to witness what very successful producers do to handle these artists. So, my question was not asked to try to give an "amateur psychological approach." I asked because understanding the artists true reasons for not wanting to do something may help to come up with an acceptable approach.

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Originally Posted by Greg Miller View Post
I respect that position. I don't feel it's my job to re-train someone who has been playing classical music for over 50 years. It's my job to get the best possible archival recording of what the performer is willing to do... period.
You are correct Greg, your job isn't to try to retrain them to play the piano. I don't think anyone is asking you to do that. But, if you are going to charge someone money, and claim that you are a professional recording engineer, you do have the responsibility to explore every avenue to solve an issue that will make the recording less than what it could be. That is your responsibility. Finding the right balance of compromises is a difficult thing to do. But, if you have skills in asking the right questions in the right context, you may discover there are more options available. The only thing that you cannot do is fight physics. That is a battle you will never win.

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Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson View Post
We are talking about people who will have the piano tuned to Bach's original temperament because it doesn't sound right on modern tuning. Slapping a big pair of headphones on these people just doesn't work.
Not every classical musician has this aversion to using headphones when recording. I've worked with artists at the highest level and some feel this way and others don't. It really depends on the individual.

And, take solace that musicians aren't the only ones with demands that are hard to overcome, work with actors and directors. As a cinematographer you're often asked to pull a miracle out of your butt. And to do it in 5 minutes.
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Old May 19th, 2013, 04:59 PM   #21
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Re: Simplest Lip-sync equipment?

I have worked with musicians and vocalists of all types in the studio over many many years as an engineer and I have also been a guitarist and vocalist for over 40 years. One thing I can tell you with absolute assurance is that it is more difficult to play a duet with yourself than with someone else! I"ve never quite worked out why that is, but I think that it is for the reasons that have been mentioned before. As a musician, you are sensitive to every variation in the feel of the music played by your musical partner and you fit around each other with every subtle nuance. So I can understand why the lady pianist feels the way she does.

However, when you play a piece of music on your own, the subtleties and variations in expression are instinctive and not neccessarily thought out in advance. When you attempt to play along or sing with a recording of yourself, you immediately start listening to what you played before and whether consciously or subconsciously you attempt to replicate what you did previously. This is quite difficult to do, sometimes even for experienced session musicians to get perfect repetition or harmony. Frequently in the studio with inexperienced musicians, it was easiest to let them perform it twice without hearing the original, particularly with vocalists. It was quite amazing how often the matches would be perfect as they were using the same inner influences without trying to follow.

The big problem for the OP though, is that there is no rhythm or click/syncopation to keep the time scale identical, so I can see this being a bigger problem than just sound overspill.

The lady concerned may well be a brilliant concert pianist with nobody suggesting that she needs to be told how how to play the piano. It is though worth remembering that she may have played all her career without headphones, but I bet she has also never played a duet with herself either! That will be a new skill that she will have to adapt to and working with headphones may be another.

To use a poor analogy, you may well have spoken English all your life but if you go to China, don't expect them to understand you :-)

Roger
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Old May 19th, 2013, 09:06 PM   #22
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Re: Simplest Lip-sync equipment?

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You are correct Greg, your job isn't to try to retrain them to play the piano. I don't think anyone is asking you to do that.
Ah, but you are!

Playing the piano is more than just depressing the keys. It is depressing the keys with very subtle nuances, to get the exact sound that the pianist wants to achieve. With duet playing, that involves listening to the balance between one's own piano and the other performer's piano (or, in some cases, it may be listening to how the other performer plays the same [shared] piano).

The pianist's listening is in many ways as important as the depressing of the keys.

So if I were to try to convince the artist to listen with headphones, for the first time in her 70+ years, then I would, indeed, be retraining her how to "play the piano." And if I were to say, "Don't worry about the balance, we'll adjust that in post," that would be an insult to all of the artist's musical training and ability.

I was not asked to produce the best possible technical recording, no holds barred. I was asked if I could produce a recording of this particular [headphone adverse] artist, playing a duet against a loudspeaker playback. That's the job: take it or leave it. I took it.

I respect this particular artist's refusal to learn how to play confidently while wearing headphones. I realize that the recording quality may not be quite as good theoretically as might be possible if we used headphones; but that's entirely moot, because that's not going to happen. Maybe you wouldn't take the job as defined, and that's fine with me. But, having accepted that challenge, I am not then going to try to change the rules after agreeing to do it with the condition that it will be loudspeaker playback.

I respect the fact that many of you have more experience than I have; that's why I posted the question here. Some of you have explained the technical reasons why this approach will be more difficult, and the results perhaps less perfect, than if we were to use headphone playback; I understand all those reasons and did understand most of them before I posted my question.

It's no surprise to hear that many musicians wear headphones while recording, and I don't doubt that some classical musicians do, too... but in fact the musician I'm working with is simply not willing to do that. I've accepted the job on those terms. I am unwilling to alienate this client by telling her that she is wrong. And I am unwilling to undermine her confidence in me by telling her I can not record her unless she wears headphones (if that's the case, I shouldn't have accepted the project in the first place). So, as I've tried to explain, this pseudo-psychological approach {e.g. "why does the artist feel that way?", "ask the right questions," "present it in a certain way," etc. might be valid for you with a different artist in a different situation, but it is simply not applicable to my particular situation with this particular artist.

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Originally Posted by Garrett Low View Post
if you are going to charge someone money, and claim that you are a professional recording engineer, you do have the responsibility to explore every avenue to solve an issue that will make the recording less than what it could be.
If I insist on the artist wearing headphones, and she is uncomfortable, and her playing is not up to per, then that will make the recording less than what it could be. You seem to think that a perfectly recorded sub-standard performance is OK. I beg to differ. I think the performance is the most important thing, and that means the artist has to be comfortable with the entire process. And that was all agreed on when I signed on to the project. And in fact, if I were to insist on headphones, they'd simply cancel the project, which is certainly their right. Period.
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Old May 19th, 2013, 10:19 PM   #23
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Re: Simplest Lip-sync equipment?

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.....If I insist on the artist wearing headphones, and she is uncomfortable, and her playing is not up to per, then that will make the recording less than what it could be. You seem to think that a perfectly recorded sub-standard performance is OK. I beg to differ. I think the performance is the most important thing, and that means the artist has to be comfortable with the entire process. And that was all agreed on when I signed on to the project. And in fact, if I were to insist on headphones, they'd simply cancel the project, which is certainly their right. Period.
It seems like you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. What is more likely to screw up the overall project, a good recording of a less than perfect performance or a poor recording of a good performance? I'd be hard pressed to choose between the two evils. A less than perfect performance from the artist is unacceptable but likewise, a less than perfect recording of her performance is also unacceptable. How do you choose?
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Old May 19th, 2013, 11:06 PM   #24
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Re: Simplest Lip-sync equipment?

Steve,

I think we've finally gotten to the crux of the matter. But in fact, the two choices are:
• a less than perfect recording of her performance, or
• a perfect recording of no performance (i.e. no recording at all).

I've reconciled myself to those two options, and I honestly think the level of imperfection of the recording will be acceptable to everyone concerned.

After all, people still listen to recordings of Rachmaninoff; people still listen to recordings of Caruso; apparently the value of the performance overrides the poor quality of the recordings. We could even name a particular well-known label whose classical recordings through the '60s and '70s were unacceptably shrill to a lot of people... but Bernstein / NY Phil recordings sold a lot of copies.

C'mon... a lot of the Q/A threads on this forum are about how to make the best of an imperfect situation. e.g., How to remove noise from an imperfect recording (rather than the "perfect" alternative: set up and record again). A lot of experts offer advice and opinions on how to reduce the amount of imperfection to an acceptable level.

That's all I'm trying to do: reduce the level of imperfection in this particular recording. I'm simply trying to do it in advance, rather than after the fact.

Regards.
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Old May 19th, 2013, 11:58 PM   #25
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Re: Simplest Lip-sync equipment?

Greg, I think that you need to understand what I am trying to communicate. Maybe I am not being clear. NO (yes a loud yelling no), I am not trying to tell you to retrain the pianist how to play. Where did you see that? You are reading what you want to read instead of reading the words. Did you just ignore the part where I wrote about finding the balance of compromises? Where did I say you should insist that the pianist wear headphones?

The point I am trying to make is that the more information one has, the better the decisions on these compromises will be. That is why I was asking the question.

And please stop being condescending when it comes to musical performance. You seem to think that you are the only one who understands how to play music. I've been a musician for over 40 years and have studied music at a university so believe me when I tell you that I completely understand the requirements of performing. I know that playing a piano is more than pressing the keys. I also know that playing music is more than just making particular sounds. It requires an understanding of the composers intent. It requires studying the subtext of each and every passage. You have to understand how the situation the composer was experiencing when they wrote that particular piece and how the performers experiences affect the interpretation of that subtext? It requires that the artist understands the mental state that Berlioz was in when he wrote Symphony Fantastique if that is what you are performing.
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Old May 20th, 2013, 12:34 AM   #26
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Re: Simplest Lip-sync equipment?

Garrett,

Please understand that I am not replying only to you. I do not have the time or the desire to write an individual, detailed reply to every single post in this thread. I am trying to reply to the general direction this thread has taken, to wit a questioning of the performer's decision about headphones, rather than a response to the technical question that I originally posted.

If I seem condescending, perhaps it's because I have felt the need to explain myself several times, since many of the replies have ignored my simple statement that the performer refuses to wear headphones and I refuse to challenge that decision. Rather than accepting that as a given, and addressing the technical issues (or simply not replying at all), many folks seem to feel they can convince me to convince the pianist to use headphones.

However, I stick by my assertion that convincing a pianist, who has never previously worn headphones, to re-learn how to perform while wearing headphones, is, essentially, asking her to re-learn playing the instrument. That's because hearing is a large part of playing. While the pianist will "hear herself play" through the headphones, it won't be the same as hearing herself live without using any headphones. Obviously, the headphones can't be 100% transparent to the live sound of her piano, so while she will "hear" the piano, it will sound different. (Or, if her mics are mixed into the headphones, it still won't sound "natural" to her... and then her expression becomes dependant on the monitor mix, which is another unnatural situation.)

More to the point, she doesn't feel comfortable about even trying it. That really ends my options, so it's rather frustrating to have people try to convince me that I should change her mind.

Some folks have not seemed to "get it" the first time around, so I've tried to make my explanations more clear and unambiguous each time. Perhaps that seems condescending to someone who has a good understanding of classical music (as you seem to have). Again, I'm sorry, but I'm trying to make my point with multiple people at once, so I can't tailor an individual response to each person.

Really, the best solution to your taking offense, and to my frustration, is to drop this thread altogether, since there has been little or no discussion of the original technical question for quite a while now. Perhaps someone else would like to start a new thread about "performer psychology" but since this thread is no longer discussing "Lip-sync equipment" I think it's gone far off topic and the time has come for it to end.
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Old May 20th, 2013, 12:39 AM   #27
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Re: Simplest Lip-sync equipment?

I think I have a solution! I've seen grand pianos that play by themselves. A built in recorder captures a performance with all the dynamics that a pianist inputs, then plays back by striking the keys with the same velocity. Have you seen such a piano? I've seen these played by performers at Macy's and Nordstrom's. If you can rent one of these for your recording session, all of your problems are solved!
Grand piano player systems, cd player units for baby grand pianos.
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Old May 20th, 2013, 12:51 AM   #28
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Re: Simplest Lip-sync equipment?

Greg, I understand your frustration and I apologies if there was some misunderstanding of your specific question.

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That's all I'm trying to do: reduce the level of imperfection in this particular recording. I'm simply trying to do it in advance, rather than after the fact.
I do not think you would want to try to do anything beyond careful placement of mics and replay through the loudspeakers at the lowest volume possible. I would not try to use anything to cancel the recorded second performance until I were in post. If you can do it successfully live you could do it in post. If did try and it wasn't successful, at least if you did it in post you'd have the unaltered recording to fall back on.

That would be my approach. So for this situation your compromise will be your time in post. If that isn't acceptable then you have another compromise to deal with.

I'd be interested to hear what others think on this approach.
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Old May 20th, 2013, 06:57 AM   #29
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Re: Simplest Lip-sync equipment?

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I do not think you would want to try to do anything beyond careful placement of mics and replay through the loudspeakers at the lowest volume possible. I would not try to use anything to cancel the recorded second performance until I were in post.
Garrett,
That is exactly what I've concluded after considering the technical comments posted here. I stated that this would be my direction, back in my post #13.

Although I initially thought about cancellation, I realize that the complexity of multiple reflections plus stereo mics will make that almost impossible. And, at any event, I would try to do any manipulation in post, so the raw track would simply be recorded as cleanly as possible. Even so, playback and recording will need to be done simultaneously by one piece of hardware, in order to maintain "zero sample error" between the two piano parts... so the original question about specific hardware still applies.

[OT: Garrett, not to disparage Symphonie Fantastique, but what about Brahms' first symphony... it took him roughly 16 years to write that. It would be quite a challenge to understand the evolution of Brahms' mental state while he was writing that!]

Warren,
That's a very interesting suggestion. I've never seen such a piano in person, although I've read about them going back for several years. I wonder how accurately they really reproduce all the fine nuances of expression. In my given situation, there are two applicable questions:
• Can a person play the "second part" on the piano, while it is mechanically reproducing the "first part"?
• Can we obtain and manage two such pianos, for the pieces which are two-piano duets?

Regards to all.

Last edited by Greg Miller; May 20th, 2013 at 07:36 AM.
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Old May 20th, 2013, 09:46 AM   #30
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Re: Simplest Lip-sync equipment?

From what I heard when I listened to these "recorded" performances, I was impressed with the dynamic variations of these player pianos, it's supposed to put out exactly what you put into it. I guess the only way to judge this is to have your pianist friend record and playback, then have her judge it for herself.

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• Can a person play the "second part" on the piano, while it is mechanically reproducing the "first part"?
• Can we obtain and manage two such pianos, for the pieces which are two-piano duets?

Regards to all.
In regards to your first question, yes, as long as the same keys are not being played at the same time.
In regards to the second question, you'll need only 1 player piano, and 1 regular piano. She'll record her performance on the player piano, then play along with it on the second piano.
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