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Old January 14th, 2014, 06:25 PM   #16
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Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match

A shotgun mic is normally used for outdoors. I just worked on a film with a soccer game scene and used a long shotgun (which otherwise rarely gets used) and picked up the sounds on the field decent. The key actors also had wireless body mics. (not recommended for real games)
There are many long and short shotgun mics available from $50 to $5,000. Wind protection is a must have for outdoor work and should be factored into your budget. BTW, a foam windscreen is really only enough for a slight breeze.
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Old January 14th, 2014, 06:45 PM   #17
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Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match

Hi , I have little experience of video recording football matches ( although I have done still photography of them a few times ) , but if you are shooting from behind a goal I'd thought you would want something with at least some directionality to reduce crowd noise from behind you at least somewhat .

I would imagine your biggest enemy will be wind noise , so a good windshield for whatever mic you use will probably be essential . If the mic was mounted on a camera which is going to be panning and zooming a lot , I'd imagine handling noise would be another potential problem - so I'd suggest getting the mic off the camera and onto a separate mic stand , which could just be a couple of feet to the side and still plugged in to the camera by a short cable .

I'd suggest at least a cardioid mic to direct pickup more onto the field than off it . Someone mentioned radio mics - if you were able to use one positioned at the far end of the field to pick up sound when the play was at that end , you could perhaps combine that with a wired mic beside your camera to pick up sound when the play was at your end ? Shotgun or rifle mics are much more directional ( or more precisely better at rejecting unwanted sound from other directions , allowing you to use more gain ) but the downside is they are more prone to picking up wind noise due to larger exposed surfaces , and I think this would work more against you for what you are trying to do . EDIT - I see that Rick beat me to it while I was typing :) The other thing with ( long ) shotgun mics is they are so directional they really need someone operating them rather than just being left on a stand .

From a sound perspective , I might be inclined to film from one of the sidelines about halfway down the pitch - this would at least even out your chances of pickup whichever end play was taking place at . You could either use a pair of wired cardioid mics on a low stand ( with stereo bar ) in front of your camera pointing slightly towards each end of the field , or if you could run to a couple of radiomics , place them maybe 1/3 of the way along the side of the pitch ( running wired mics out would probably be frowned on due to trip hazards ) . The downside of filming from the side is that you'd be doing a lot of panning to and fro and it could potentially look messy , unless you have a good fluid head tripod and are proficient in its use .

No chance of finding a like minded partner with a second camera ? Then you could film from both ends and cut your footage together ? Or maybe set up a second unmanned camera locked off at the far end then you would have both sound and pictures from there ?

Oddly enough , although I've never thought of filming football , despite living just outside Glasgow , I recently sold my two older standard definition cameras ( JVC GY-DV500's ) to someone who was intending to use them for just that .

Finally , just a wild idea ! Someone mentioned something about parabolic mics - I haven't tried this , but I wonder if putting a mic in place of the LNB at the focus point of an old satellite dish ( which is a parabolic reflector ) would work ? Perhaps a crazy idea , but it might just work ??
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Old January 14th, 2014, 07:45 PM   #18
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Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match

Someone typically videos from the sidelines that is why I get a different view from the goal. Most of the fields/stadiums do not have bleachers behind the goals.

Are the furry covers good enough for wind protection?

So would a shotgun like the Rode NTG-2 work? I thought there were issues using a shotgun to pickup sounds at distance or am I misinterpreting what I have read?
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Old January 15th, 2014, 12:58 AM   #19
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Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match

Here is a clip I did at Man Utd with just the camera mic for sound FX:

I use a stock panasonic AJ-MC700MC short shotgun with a rode WS/6 windshield.

Another clip here:
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Old January 15th, 2014, 07:59 AM   #20
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Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match

Those sound great. The only issue being you can barely hear the impact of the foot on the ball, but I won't have 50,000 screaming fans. So you think the way to go is a short shotgun? What might be a good one for my application. Keep in mind I will probably just have 100 screaming fans.

I saw one of your posts somewhere that you liked the AT-875, but it was an entirely different application. For the most part I have to deal with more wind noise than fan noise.

I really appreciate all of the wonderful input. I would like to get a microphone ordered this week for an out of town tournament next week.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 08:13 AM   #21
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Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match

You can always add a few stock audio clips of footballs being kicked - extra work I know, but if the guy is kicking the ball at the far end of the field then you are not going to get that much of a live sound.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 09:18 AM   #22
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Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenlee Brittenum View Post
...

What would you guys that have shot soccer or football recommend in a cardiod or an omni microphone? I thought shotguns didn't perform well at distance? ....
The optimum working distance of a cardioid is less than that of a shotgun and an omni is even less than the cardioid. If you want to hear the thump of a foot hitting the ball you need to suppress the sounds coming from other directions. If you want to hear the crowd, you need something that picks up
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Old January 15th, 2014, 09:32 AM   #23
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Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match

That makes sense, I think I would rather have the sounds on the field instead of the crowd noise which is very little. So does that mean a shotgun microphone? Would you mount it to the camera which is on the Hi-Pod 6 to 9 meters above the ground and aimed directly at the action? Which model would you recommend for narrow pickup. I guess I could also setup an omni on a stand near the ground. If I wan to pick up wider ambient sounds. What would you recommend for that application? I wish someone made a parabolic that would fit on a camera or be capable of mounting it near off a bracket. I suspect the physics of sound prohibit an 8 to 12 inch parabolic reflector from working. All the ones I see are more in the 2 to 3 foot range.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 10:36 AM   #24
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Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match

In general, the longer the shotgun, the better it will be at rejecting unwanted off-axis sounds.

I say "in general" because there are different families of shotguns (i.e. different acoustical and/or electronic means of producing the directional pattern) and the different principles result in differing off-axis rejection for the different designs.

Also, I suggest you just listen, using your own ears, to the sound of the ball being kicked. It will sound a lot different at a distance of 100 feet than it sounds at a distance of ten feet. That's physics. No microphone can magically eliminate that difference. One mic might give you the "100 feet away" sound with a lot of background sounds; another mic might give you the "100 feet away" sound with much less background sound; but no mic will give you the "ten feet away" sound if the mic is 100 feet from the ball.

You're right about parabolic reflectors. Small ones, on the order of a foot or two, are used by nature recordists to capture the sound of distant bird calls. But those are all very high frequencies compared to what you want. I would have to dig in some old reference books for an actual number, but to get a good low-frequency "thump" I'm pretty sure you'd need one that's more than three feet in diameter. Even if you had such a beast, you'd need a separate operator to keep it aimed at the action, while you were busy aiming the camera.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 10:46 AM   #25
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Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match

So Greg, with me videoing from behind a goal with potential distances from 10 to 100 meters what model would you recommend? Can you get something under $500 or do I need to move up to under $1000. Since this is more hobby than professional I don't want to go crazy.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 11:16 AM   #26
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Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match

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Originally Posted by Vincent Oliver View Post
You can always add a few stock audio clips of footballs being kicked - extra work I know, but if the guy is kicking the ball at the far end of the field then you are not going to get that much of a live sound.
Yes , after reading the previous post I was going to suggest that he goes along to a practice session where he can get out onto the pitch and record a few kicks at close range .

These sounds can then be added in post .
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Old January 15th, 2014, 11:28 AM   #27
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Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match

I am trying to keep it as simple as possible. Trying to time sound to kicks could be time consuming. :-) But it is a great idea.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 12:35 PM   #28
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Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match

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Originally Posted by Greenlee Brittenum View Post
So Greg, with me videoing from behind a goal with potential distances from 10 to 100 meters what model would you recommend? Can you get something under $500 or do I need to move up to under $1000. Since this is more hobby than professional I don't want to go crazy.
First, please re-read my previous post, especially the third paragraph. You just cannot get a good "thump" of a ball kick from 100 meters away.

At one time E-V made an interference-tube dynamic mic, the model 643, which I often saw used in the stadium pressbox, aimed at the field. The sound wasn't great, but it was the best that could be done in the '60s.
A Seven-Foot-Long Microphone | Preservation Sound
http://javierzumer.com/wp-content/up...odel_6431.jpeg

It was an outgrowth of the RCA MI-10006A
http://www.hollywoodsound.com/pic-li...attachment.jpg
I actually built a mock-up of this as a high school science project. (Plans were published in one of the electronics hobby magazines). It had reasonably good coverage of the neighbors back yard.

IMHO, to do what you want to do today, namely to capture a realistic "thump" of a kicked ball at a distance of 100 meters, you need a microphone that hasn't yet been invented, plus direct intervention of the Pope. Perhaps someone else can suggest a compromise solution.
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Old January 15th, 2014, 12:40 PM   #29
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Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match

Anybody have any experience with this microphone:

Audio-Technica BP4029 (AT835ST) Stereo Shotgun Microphone

Would it work for shooting soccer matches or is there still better options?

Greg, I appreciate your frankness. That is what I am looking for the best compromise. I realize from all of your suggestions that to get optimum sound I need multiple microphones aimed at the pitch from a number of different positions. And maybe somewhere down the road I start adding wireless equipment and additional microphones. But for now just looking for the best performance from one or two microphones that I can get that is an improvement over the internal microphones of my Canon XA-20. As far as divine intervention, I certainly can use all the help I can get. :-)
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Old January 15th, 2014, 01:35 PM   #30
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Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match

The bottom line is, you are not going to get fantastic sound from a mike on top of your camcorder, you need to invest in a lot of gear, but from what you are posting I am not so sure it is worth spending a lot of money on. I am sure the soccer teams will be more than pleased to see the videos and will appreciate that you can't cover every inch of the pitch.
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