Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match

Steve House · January 17th, 2014, 08:31 AM

Concurring with Bill and Greg, shotguns ARE NOT the acoustic equivalent of a telephoto lens. They DO NOT 'magnify' distant sounds and and they're no more sensitive to faint sounds than any other mic. What they do is REDUCE (but not eliminate) the pickup of extraneous sounds coming from directions other than where they're pointed.

Greenlee Brittenum · January 17th, 2014, 09:19 AM

I really appreciate the input, it is incredible. Keep in mind I am NOT videoing EPL games with 50,000 plus fans. I am videoing school games with possibly 50 fans maybe less. So I don't have the fan noise. I think with all of your help I am narrowing in on a solution I want to spend money on.

Is there a long shotgun under $500, that anyone would recommend? I have seen a few under $1000. I have seen some used AT4071s under $500.

I think Gary's solution is certainly doable. The one with the AT875r microphones, not the one with the calrec app. :-)

Gary Nattrass · January 17th, 2014, 10:15 AM

I would just stick to short shotguns as longer ones will not help and if anything will be not as useful on other jobs.

If I was doing a school soccer match I would do what I suggested with my three AT875r set-up with one either side of the camera position panned left and right and a centre panned one on the camera.

The ones either side of the camera could be quite a distance apart and rigged out of the way of any crowd or people so to get the max audio from the pitch.

A mixer may be required but with my four channel camera I could do it easily and even put a radio mic on the ref for good measure.

Paul R Johnson · January 17th, 2014, 04:00 PM

In my clip the mic you can see is actually an Audio Technica 815 - I've had it for years and it's a bit longer than the 416. I have two Sennheiser baskets and grips with furry covers, but for this session it was the 815 in the Senn basket but without the hairy cover. The 815 is too long for the basket intended for the 416, but it fits if you remove the XLR plug cover - so I have a thin cable that has the female insert only on one end and a normal plug on the other - just for this mic. Irrespective of the microphone type, having it as close to the pitch, and with it's rear to the nearest crowd does give more pitch, less crowd.

Greenlee Brittenum · January 17th, 2014, 08:28 PM

Is there a 4 to 2 field mixer under $1000 you would recommend? Or would recommend I get a six to two or eight to two, in case I want to add in the future? I have never dealt with phantom power, how far will it go on xlr? Since I only have two inputs I will need something.

Steve House · January 17th, 2014, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greenlee Brittenum

Is there a 4 to 2 field mixer under $1000 you would recommend? Or would recommend I get a six to two or eight to two, in case I want to add in the future? I have never dealt with phantom power, how far will it go on xlr? Since I only have two inputs I will need something.

I would expect 4 inputs would to be enough for the foreseeable future. And transmitting phantom power will be no problem over balanced cables of any practical length - several hundred meters is not at all uncommon in broadcast applications.

Gary Nattrass · January 18th, 2014, 02:26 AM

If it is a static set-up and you don't want to spend too much money just get one of these behringer battery operated mixers: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/616352-REG/Behringer_1002B_XENYX_1002B_Battery.html
Not a traditional eng type field mixer but it has lots of facilities and is cheap as chips.

P.S yes I have one too and use it a lot, for static set-ups I rig it under my tripod on a box so it is easy to see and control.

Jim Michael · January 18th, 2014, 08:55 AM

The directionality of a shotgun mic is also frequency dependent and low frequencies off-axis are not as well attenuated, which tends to favor a line gradient mic like the BP4071. Since I would expect the thump sound of the ball to be a pretty low frequency that might be a factor in mic selection for this particular scenario.

The BP designation was given to the revised AT series after making some type of change to comply with new Euro standards, so an AT4071 should be very close to a BP4071. There is also a BP4071L which has an even narrower pattern, but very long ca. 21".

Also research soundscape recording.

Rick Reineke · January 18th, 2014, 10:53 AM

Few and far between but I've seen pre-owned Sound Devices 302s for around $900, which is arguably the best 3x2 field mixer available. But since you're not dealing with close mic'd dialog and w/o a equally high-end mics, There's plenty of other choices that would work for far less.

Greenlee Brittenum · January 18th, 2014, 06:03 PM

Thanks Gary, so you had good success with that mixer in the field? Will it be an issue connecting it back to my camera, going 1/4" phone plug to XLR?

Jim, I have looked closely at the 4071. Do you think it would be an issue mounting on or near my camera on the top of the Hi-Pod? Since it is so directional that would be my only way of aiming it, since I don't have a sound man. I have some brackets and other mounting gear, so surely I could get it out of the frame.

Vincent, I don't have to worry about foul language. I was at a match today and the keeper loudly expressed his dismay with some colorful language and was promptly red carded. Apparently there is no foul language allowed in Texas high school soccer, punishable by red card. Didn't realize that until today.

Gary Nattrass · January 19th, 2014, 04:30 AM

No problems going 1/4" to XLR the line outputs are balanced so you just need two 1/4 inch TRS (tip ring sleeve) to XLR leads. My output leads have right angled XLR's fitted to it keeps the cables tidy.

I have used it on live sat broadcasts and it works very well, I use the limiters in my camera to keep levels legal and having aux outputs to feed other sources can be very handy on location too.
Here is my older one in action mixing three sennheiser radio mics for a live broadcast on SKY racing TV UK:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ps0123d25c.jpg

If you are after a more traditional ENG style mixer then I would think that this would fit the bill without breaking the bank:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WENDT-X5-5...item4d17424b44

Jim Michael · January 19th, 2014, 09:45 AM

I've never tried mounting a large mic on a camera so couldn't say how practical that might be. I have a BP4071L which is definitely too long for that. I have a small tripod for it, and the audio I'm interested in doesn't tend to move around much. I suppose a tripod head would facilitate such movements.

Greenlee Brittenum · January 19th, 2014, 10:07 AM

Gary thanks for all the help. I need to start get some of this equipment ordered. I noticed you had your mixer in a hard case. Did you just set it in or block it in with foam? The Wendt mixer is nice, I have never bought that kind of equipment used is it pretty safe to buy that level of equipment used because it is built so tough to begin with? I know I buy used Toughbook computers all the time with no worries, because there isn't much you can do to one. I looked at all your pictures. I noticed the Citronics DeeJay console. I use to have several of those many many years ago when I ran a mobile DeeJay company. I read the articles you had pictures of, you certainly have a rich background in audio and video.

Any product you like better than others for wind protection on the AT875r? Should I use some kind of shock/isolation mount on the cameras and stands,if so is there one you like?

Thank you again for all your help, I am sure I will have more questions as I go along.

Gary Nattrass · January 20th, 2014, 03:41 AM

Yes my behringer 1002b is in a case and I think it was an old laptop carry case so it fitted very well. The Wendt mixer will be more useful but you will pay a bit more for even a second hand one but at least those listed are from a recognised supplier so should be OK.

For my AT875R mics I use the rode PG2 pistol grips and the WS/6 softie and they seem to do a good job at a reasonable cost.

I have been around the block a bit and this is my 35th year in TV and Film mainly with the audio dept but also with cameras and editing now.

I started as a DJ in the 70's and ashamed to say I still have my 12 inch disco single collection.

Next stop Sochi on Friday for seven weeks of fun looking after the world's commentators at the winter olympics!

Greenlee Brittenum · January 20th, 2014, 01:07 PM

Does the WS6 softie go over the foam windscreen or directly on the microphone? So you think the used Wendt is worth the additional dollars over the Behringer?

Funny, I still have all of my 12" singles and all my 45's about 15,000 of them.

Have fun in Sochi. Thanks for all your help.

January 17th, 2014, 08:31 AM	#46
Steve House Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 5,742	Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match Concurring with Bill and Greg, shotguns ARE NOT the acoustic equivalent of a telephoto lens. They DO NOT 'magnify' distant sounds and and they're no more sensitive to faint sounds than any other mic. What they do is REDUCE (but not eliminate) the pickup of extraneous sounds coming from directions other than where they're pointed. __________________ Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!

January 17th, 2014, 09:19 AM	#47
Greenlee Brittenum Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Friendswood, TX USA Posts: 41	Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match I really appreciate the input, it is incredible. Keep in mind I am NOT videoing EPL games with 50,000 plus fans. I am videoing school games with possibly 50 fans maybe less. So I don't have the fan noise. I think with all of your help I am narrowing in on a solution I want to spend money on. Is there a long shotgun under $500, that anyone would recommend? I have seen a few under $1000. I have seen some used AT4071s under $500. I think Gary's solution is certainly doable. The one with the AT875r microphones, not the one with the calrec app. :-)

January 17th, 2014, 10:15 AM	#48
Gary Nattrass Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Cornsay Durham UK Posts: 1,992	Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match I would just stick to short shotguns as longer ones will not help and if anything will be not as useful on other jobs. If I was doing a school soccer match I would do what I suggested with my three AT875r set-up with one either side of the camera position panned left and right and a centre panned one on the camera. The ones either side of the camera could be quite a distance apart and rigged out of the way of any crowd or people so to get the max audio from the pitch. A mixer may be required but with my four channel camera I could do it easily and even put a radio mic on the ref for good measure. __________________ Over 15 minutes in Broadcast Film and TV production: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1044352/

January 17th, 2014, 04:00 PM	#49
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match In my clip the mic you can see is actually an Audio Technica 815 - I've had it for years and it's a bit longer than the 416. I have two Sennheiser baskets and grips with furry covers, but for this session it was the 815 in the Senn basket but without the hairy cover. The 815 is too long for the basket intended for the 416, but it fits if you remove the XLR plug cover - so I have a thin cable that has the female insert only on one end and a normal plug on the other - just for this mic. Irrespective of the microphone type, having it as close to the pitch, and with it's rear to the nearest crowd does give more pitch, less crowd.

January 17th, 2014, 08:28 PM	#50
Greenlee Brittenum Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Friendswood, TX USA Posts: 41	Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match Is there a 4 to 2 field mixer under $1000 you would recommend? Or would recommend I get a six to two or eight to two, in case I want to add in the future? I have never dealt with phantom power, how far will it go on xlr? Since I only have two inputs I will need something.

January 18th, 2014, 02:26 AM	#52
Gary Nattrass Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Cornsay Durham UK Posts: 1,992	Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match If it is a static set-up and you don't want to spend too much money just get one of these behringer battery operated mixers: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/616352-REG/Behringer_1002B_XENYX_1002B_Battery.html Not a traditional eng type field mixer but it has lots of facilities and is cheap as chips. P.S yes I have one too and use it a lot, for static set-ups I rig it under my tripod on a box so it is easy to see and control. __________________ Over 15 minutes in Broadcast Film and TV production: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1044352/

January 18th, 2014, 08:55 AM	#53
Jim Michael Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 895	Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match The directionality of a shotgun mic is also frequency dependent and low frequencies off-axis are not as well attenuated, which tends to favor a line gradient mic like the BP4071. Since I would expect the thump sound of the ball to be a pretty low frequency that might be a factor in mic selection for this particular scenario. The BP designation was given to the revised AT series after making some type of change to comply with new Euro standards, so an AT4071 should be very close to a BP4071. There is also a BP4071L which has an even narrower pattern, but very long ca. 21". Also research soundscape recording.

January 18th, 2014, 10:53 AM	#54
Rick Reineke Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New York Posts: 2,038	Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match Few and far between but I've seen pre-owned Sound Devices 302s for around $900, which is arguably the best 3x2 field mixer available. But since you're not dealing with close mic'd dialog and w/o a equally high-end mics, There's plenty of other choices that would work for far less.

January 18th, 2014, 06:03 PM	#55
Greenlee Brittenum Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Friendswood, TX USA Posts: 41	Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match Thanks Gary, so you had good success with that mixer in the field? Will it be an issue connecting it back to my camera, going 1/4" phone plug to XLR? Jim, I have looked closely at the 4071. Do you think it would be an issue mounting on or near my camera on the top of the Hi-Pod? Since it is so directional that would be my only way of aiming it, since I don't have a sound man. I have some brackets and other mounting gear, so surely I could get it out of the frame. Vincent, I don't have to worry about foul language. I was at a match today and the keeper loudly expressed his dismay with some colorful language and was promptly red carded. Apparently there is no foul language allowed in Texas high school soccer, punishable by red card. Didn't realize that until today.

January 19th, 2014, 04:30 AM	#56
Gary Nattrass Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Cornsay Durham UK Posts: 1,992	Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match No problems going 1/4" to XLR the line outputs are balanced so you just need two 1/4 inch TRS (tip ring sleeve) to XLR leads. My output leads have right angled XLR's fitted to it keeps the cables tidy. I have used it on live sat broadcasts and it works very well, I use the limiters in my camera to keep levels legal and having aux outputs to feed other sources can be very handy on location too. Here is my older one in action mixing three sennheiser radio mics for a live broadcast on SKY racing TV UK: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ps0123d25c.jpg If you are after a more traditional ENG style mixer then I would think that this would fit the bill without breaking the bank: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WENDT-X5-5...item4d17424b44 __________________ Over 15 minutes in Broadcast Film and TV production: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1044352/ Last edited by Gary Nattrass; January 19th, 2014 at 06:03 AM.

January 19th, 2014, 09:45 AM	#57
Jim Michael Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 895	Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match I've never tried mounting a large mic on a camera so couldn't say how practical that might be. I have a BP4071L which is definitely too long for that. I have a small tripod for it, and the audio I'm interested in doesn't tend to move around much. I suppose a tripod head would facilitate such movements.

January 19th, 2014, 10:07 AM	#58
Greenlee Brittenum Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Friendswood, TX USA Posts: 41	Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match Gary thanks for all the help. I need to start get some of this equipment ordered. I noticed you had your mixer in a hard case. Did you just set it in or block it in with foam? The Wendt mixer is nice, I have never bought that kind of equipment used is it pretty safe to buy that level of equipment used because it is built so tough to begin with? I know I buy used Toughbook computers all the time with no worries, because there isn't much you can do to one. I looked at all your pictures. I noticed the Citronics DeeJay console. I use to have several of those many many years ago when I ran a mobile DeeJay company. I read the articles you had pictures of, you certainly have a rich background in audio and video. Any product you like better than others for wind protection on the AT875r? Should I use some kind of shock/isolation mount on the cameras and stands,if so is there one you like? Thank you again for all your help, I am sure I will have more questions as I go along.

January 20th, 2014, 03:41 AM	#59
Gary Nattrass Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Cornsay Durham UK Posts: 1,992	Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match Yes my behringer 1002b is in a case and I think it was an old laptop carry case so it fitted very well. The Wendt mixer will be more useful but you will pay a bit more for even a second hand one but at least those listed are from a recognised supplier so should be OK. For my AT875R mics I use the rode PG2 pistol grips and the WS/6 softie and they seem to do a good job at a reasonable cost. I have been around the block a bit and this is my 35th year in TV and Film mainly with the audio dept but also with cameras and editing now. I started as a DJ in the 70's and ashamed to say I still have my 12 inch disco single collection. Next stop Sochi on Friday for seven weeks of fun looking after the world's commentators at the winter olympics! __________________ Over 15 minutes in Broadcast Film and TV production: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1044352/

January 20th, 2014, 01:07 PM	#60
Greenlee Brittenum Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Friendswood, TX USA Posts: 41	Re: Recommendations for microphones for a soccer match Does the WS6 softie go over the foam windscreen or directly on the microphone? So you think the used Wendt is worth the additional dollars over the Behringer? Funny, I still have all of my 12" singles and all my 45's about 15,000 of them. Have fun in Sochi. Thanks for all your help.