Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo - Page 3 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > All Things Audio

All Things Audio
Everything Audio, from acquisition to postproduction.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 6th, 2015, 10:50 AM   #31
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Raleigh, NC, USA
Posts: 677
Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig McKenna View Post
Totally understand your recommendations, Bruce. If I were to purchase a mic to do mono better than the SANKEN COS 11D, what would you suggest?
Mein Himmel, this is turning into a mess. People get into religious arguments over omnis for choir in a big acoustic space. Just about any of the "biggies" will do fine for you, it all depends on what you like. Sennheiser, Schoeps (my personal favs), Neumann, Microtech Gefell, etc. all make excellent mics, all make several omnis, all a little different.

The thing is, the lavalier will do fine. The small size of the capsule will give you a little more noise, this is true. Will you be able to tell over the noise from your recorder? I doubt it. The small size also means that the mic is closer to the "perfect omni" at all frequencies. IOW, the body of the mic out behind the capsule doesn't offer any real size to shadow the capsule and result in slightly directional qualities at higher frequencies like bigger mics (think SDCs) do. This is why I said earlier that pointing the mic at the top of your lightstand wasn't that big of a deal. Because it's a lavalier, and it's size is working in your favor. A bigger mic, and SDC, wants to be pointed correctly, even the omnis.

The biggest problem with a lavalier is that it's typically an unbalanced plug-in power device, which leaves it open to RFI, like cell phones, etc. But in a closed building with only the choir and a few others present, this won't likely be much of a problem -- none-the-less, this is why you must monitor the audio. In case it becomes a problem, you need to hear it to know about it. You aren't likely going to be able to fix the RF hits in post without leaving audible artifacts unless you have some expensive software and some extensive experience, and even then, some RF hits are just unfixable. Better to prevent it in the first place, which is why the movie industry (where time really is money) came up with balanced cables and phantom power for mics. That's the real reason to move up to SDCs for this duty.

Classical and acoustic location recording is much more about mic placement than it is about the mic itself. A good pro can get excellent results out of just about any mic. They may like working with some more than others, which is why they buy what they buy. But they all know it's mostly placement and attention to detail, and trusting your ears.
Bruce Watson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2015, 10:58 AM   #32
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Raleigh, NC, USA
Posts: 677
Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig McKenna View Post
And I assume that with a large diaphragm, they will be much more competent at getting better audio.
They will be a little better, but not "much more competent". You know what the Cos-11d sounds like on voice, and voice is what you're going to be recording. How much better do you think you're going to get? There are some advantages to the bigger mics, but "much more competent" is really an overstatement.
Bruce Watson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2015, 11:33 AM   #33
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 495
Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
Mein Himmel, this is turning into a mess. People get into religious arguments over omnis for choir in a big acoustic space. Just about any of the "biggies" will do fine for you, it all depends on what you like. Sennheiser, Schoeps (my personal favs), Neumann, Microtech Gefell, etc. all make excellent mics, all make several omnis, all a little different.
Thanks Bruce! I've looked at Sennheiser (seem to go from 100 to 1400 and nothing in between?) and Schoeps (I can see why they'd be your favourite, but it looks like about 1300 before you can actually get one?!). If you can recommend one in the 500 range, I would be extremely thankful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
The thing is, the lavalier will do fine. The small size of the capsule will give you a little more noise, this is true. Will you be able to tell over the noise from your recorder? I doubt it. The small size also means that the mic is closer to the "perfect omni" at all frequencies. IOW, the body of the mic out behind the capsule doesn't offer any real size to shadow the capsule and result in slightly directional qualities at higher frequencies like bigger mics (think SDCs) do. This is why I said earlier that pointing the mic at the top of your lightstand wasn't that big of a deal. Because it's a lavalier, and it's size is working in your favor. A bigger mic, and SDC, wants to be pointed correctly, even the omnis.
Thanks... I can see how that would be the case after reading your explanation... I think it would be great to have two microphones running simultaneously, so that if one recording isn't as great as the other, then I have the choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
The biggest problem with a lavalier is that it's typically an unbalanced plug-in power device, which leaves it open to RFI, like cell phones, etc. But in a closed building with only the choir and a few others present, this won't likely be much of a problem -- none-the-less, this is why you must monitor the audio. In case it becomes a problem, you need to hear it to know about it. You aren't likely going to be able to fix the RF hits in post without leaving audible artifacts unless you have some expensive software and some extensive experience, and even then, some RF hits are just unfixable. Better to prevent it in the first place, which is why the movie industry (where time really is money) came up with balanced cables and phantom power for mics. That's the real reason to move up to SDCs for this duty.

Classical and acoustic location recording is much more about mic placement than it is about the mic itself. A good pro can get excellent results out of just about any mic. They may like working with some more than others, which is why they buy what they buy. But they all know it's mostly placement and attention to detail, and trusting your ears.
Thanks Bruce! I think my friend might be willing to come along with me for the shoot. His experience will be a great help. I think if I can monitor the sound a lot, I should be able to find a good mic placement. I would be disappointed in myself if I couldn't, especially after reading everyone's tips here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
They will be a little better, but not "much more competent". You know what the Cos-11d sounds like on voice, and voice is what you're going to be recording. How much better do you think you're going to get? There are some advantages to the bigger mics, but "much more competent" is really an overstatement.
Yeah, true. Guess I just see it as being great at recording one voice, and that a bigger mic would suit a greater audience / choir... probably a misconception.
Craig McKenna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2015, 11:42 AM   #34
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Belgium
Posts: 9,068
Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig McKenna View Post
Thanks! If you could give me an idea of what you would consider buying on a budget that is a maximum 1000
Craig, I"m not in a position to give you any advice on gear because my audio expertise is most likely not much better then yours but I just want to share my thoughts on this matter.

If I would been asked to shoot this and record audio I would have refused if I had to deal with the audio myself, I would not spend 1K on audio gear if I was not aware what I was getting into. You ofcourse have to start somewhere but what you have been asked to do is a specialist job.

I would have hired a audio specialist to take care the audio part, you might say that your client doesn't have the funds to pay for that additional cost but if you really wanted to add this to your portfolio you could charge whatever they can pay and take the cost of the audio expert on yourself which can be an investment if that particular job ends up getting more inquiries for similar recordings. And for those requests you will be able to charge accordingly. Or you might learn from working together with a freelancer that is an audio expert so you get to know what you exactly need to do it yourself after a while.

I know you mean well and you want to do them a favor but you might end up with an average product that you can't use to promote yourself and your current client might be not satisfied. Just my 2 eurocents, I do hope ofcourse that it will work out alright for you.
Noa Put is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2015, 11:55 AM   #35
Trustee
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,177
Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

A real "sleeper" microphone is the Line Audio CM3 Cardioid.
They currently sell for 999 SEK = 78 GBP = 119 USD
I would have 2 or 4 or 6 of them except that they seem to be perpetually back-ordered because the guy who makes them can't keep up with the demand.
Line Audio Design - Made in Sweden

They are the subject of one of the longest discussions (179279 views) over on GearSlutz:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remo...ally-good.html

I'm not all that familiar with European vendors, but when I look at what is available on the Thomann website, it looks like there are a variety of possibilities such as
Rode NT4 stereo: Rode NT4 - Thomann UK I like mine a lot. One of my favorites.
Or: Rode NT5 Matched Pair - Thomann UK
Or a pair of: Beyerdynamic MC-950 - Thomann UK
Or a pair of: AKG C 451 B - Thomann UK
Or: Rode NT55 MP - Thomann UK

With the individual mics, you would need a "stereo bar" to mount a pair of them in ORTF (or whatever) configuration.

I use tall Manfrotto "light stands" for microphones in large spaces. Just use an adapter between the 5/8 inch ("baby") pin and the microphone mount.
Richard Crowley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2015, 12:00 PM   #36
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 495
Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
Craig, I"m not in a position to give you any advice on gear because my audio expertise is most likely not much better then yours but I just want to share my thoughts on this matter.

If I would been asked to shoot this and record audio I would have refused if I had to deal with the audio myself, I would not spend 1K on audio gear if I was not aware what I was getting into. You ofcourse have to start somewhere but what you have been asked to do is a specialist job.

I would have hired a audio specialist to take care the audio part, you might say that your client doesn't have the funds to pay for that additional cost but if you really wanted to add this to your portfolio you could charge whatever they can pay and take the cost of the audio expert on yourself which can be an investment if that particular job ends up getting more inquiries for similar recordings. And for those requests you will be able to charge accordingly. Or you might learn from working together with a freelancer that is an audio expert so you get to know what you exactly need to do it yourself after a while.

I know you mean well and you want to do them a favor but you might end up with an average product that you can't use to promote yourself and your current client might be not satisfied. Just my 2 eurocents, I do hope ofcourse that it will work out alright for you.
Thanks Noa. I have contacted my client today to explain this, and also said that if they do not expect the audio to be of a high standard, and that they accept the best that I can offer them as a first timer, then I am happy to do it still. Alternatively, they can leave it. I suggested the recording take place at a later date when the CD has been recorded as well. I'll wait to hear of the response from the client, as I got the feeling that the footage was more important to them than the audio.

As for refusing the option to shoot, I can definitely understand that response and may live to regret not doing the same. It did cross my mind at the time, but in the same vain, it would be great to pull this off, given that I've explained my shortcomings and limitations of the gear that I own.

As I've done the above, I'm hoping that they'll reconsider or have realistic expectations. My friend has offerd to come along for the rehearsal and to have a go at recording the audio with me. I can then replicate that for the shoot if humanly possible. We'll see though.

Thanks for your input though, Noa. Always appreciated! And I'm sure your knowledge of audio far outweighs that of my own too!
Craig McKenna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2015, 12:05 PM   #37
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 495
Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Crowley View Post
A real "sleeper" microphone is the Line Audio CM3 Cardioid.
They currently sell for 999 SEK = 78 GBP = 119 USD
I would have 2 or 4 or 6 of them except that they seem to be perpetually back-ordered because the guy who makes them can't keep up with the demand.
Line Audio Design - Made in Sweden

They are the subject of one of the longest discussions (179279 views) over on GearSlutz:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remo...ally-good.html

I'm not all that familiar with European vendors, but when I look at what is available on the Thomann website, it looks like there are a variety of possibilities such as
Rode NT4 stereo: Rode NT4 - Thomann UK I like mine a lot. One of my favorites.
Or: Rode NT5 Matched Pair - Thomann UK
Or a pair of: Beyerdynamic MC-950 - Thomann UK
Or a pair of: AKG C 451 B - Thomann UK
Or: Rode NT55 MP - Thomann UK

With the individual mics, you would need a "stereo bar" to mount a pair of them in ORTF (or whatever) configuration.

I use tall Manfrotto "light stands" for microphones in large spaces. Just use an adapter between the 5/8 inch ("baby") pin and the microphone mount.
Does the RODE NT4 Stereo provide as good a recording as the other mics?

Thanks for your input! If you were to double the budget and buy an omnidirectional microphone, which would you recommend? Appreciate your help, as I'm going to need to make a decision this evening.
Craig McKenna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2015, 12:10 PM   #38
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Belgium
Posts: 9,068
Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Quote:
And I'm sure your knowledge of audio far outweighs that of my own too!
That's actually the only area I consider myself being a novice in, I have worked out a workflow to cover my main audio at weddings but when I read topics in the audio section of this forum I don't understand a thing they are saying. :)
Noa Put is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2015, 12:15 PM   #39
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 495
Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
That's actually the only area I consider myself being a novice in, I have worked out a workflow to cover my main audio at weddings but when I read topics in the audio section of this forum I don't understand a thing they are saying. :)
Hahaha! :) I am trying to learn this area, can only be a helpful thing long term! :) See what happens!
Craig McKenna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2015, 12:38 PM   #40
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 495
Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

What about purchasing one of these?

AKG C414 XLII Reference Multi-Pattern Condenser Microphone

It works in an omni directional, but also many others... would give me room to grow in the future, and could also be a blessing to try different modes if one didn't work so well within the cathedral itself?

*EDIT* I've read that it does a decent job of vocals, but not an amazing job, as it's more suited to instruments.
Craig McKenna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2015, 12:51 PM   #41
Major Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 848
Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Why don't you rent a stereo pair of good microphones? This looks like a local resource:

Hire: Microphones - Neumann, Royer, Soundfield, DPA, Sennheiser

They may even have suggestions for recording in that venue.
Jim Michael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2015, 12:57 PM   #42
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 495
Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Michael View Post
Why don't you rent a stereo pair of good microphones? This looks like a local resource:

Hire: Microphones - Neumann, Royer, Soundfield, DPA, Sennheiser

They may even have suggestions for recording in that venue.
I always perceive this as wasting money, as I'll no doubt need an omni or cardioid mic eventually, or a good pair of stereo mics... I was tempted to go with Bruce's advice with a single omnidirectional microphone as well?

I am interested in anyone who can advise me of an omnidirectional mic to use? Quite a few people have mentioned how a stereo recording may be too much for me as a beginner?
Craig McKenna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2015, 01:02 PM   #43
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Raleigh, NC, USA
Posts: 677
Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig McKenna View Post
What about purchasing one of these?

AKG C414 XLII Reference Multi-Pattern Condenser Microphone
They work well for spot mics, not so well as main pair mics. LDCs have some interesting strengths and some interesting weaknesses. One of the weaknesses is how they perform off-axis, and it's largely an artifact of the size of the diaphragm. And for main pair work, off-axis is critical (IOW, you can easily hear it). The effect is that the reflection can sound colored compared to the direct sound. That's... disconcerting, and it calls attention to itself.

One of the problems with multi-pattern mics is that they form the multiple different polar patterns by using a pair of back-to-back diaphragms. They use these in different ways to make the various patterns. Which is fine, but you can't get a pure pressure omni this way. All the patterns are pressure gradient patterns. What this means is that it can give you an omni polar pattern, but it won't really sound like a "true" omni. Just like the figure 8 pattern is back to back cardioids, and not a true single diaphragm figure 8. I'm just sayin' that there are compromises made to get the different patterns. For most studio work it's fine. For main pair work sometimes it's not.
Bruce Watson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2015, 01:07 PM   #44
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Raleigh, NC, USA
Posts: 677
Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig McKenna View Post
Quite a few people have mentioned how a stereo recording may be too much for me as a beginner?
I'm not saying it's too much for a beginner; everyone has to start somewhere. I'm saying there's learning curves to be climbed, and you have said you have very limited time. It's the lack of time and resources that makes me think: keep it simple.
Bruce Watson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 6th, 2015, 01:09 PM   #45
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 495
Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Thanks Bruce.

As a final post, in the hope of getting a direct answer, can someone recommend a good omnidirectional microphone to purchase?

I am feeling the squeeze of time, and realise that I must purchase in the next few hours in anticipation of the microphone arriving by Tuesday.

Thank you to everyone who has offered their expertise. It's been a fascinating weekend in which I have only dipped a toe into the world of audio recording. I will continue to learn before and after the event, as this is a fascinating and important aspect of video that I wish to explore and improve further.

Thanks again!
Craig McKenna is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > All Things Audio

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:21 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network