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Old September 7th, 2015, 09:52 AM   #76
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

The 57 & 58 are great mics for sure (and pretty much indestructible), and countless hit records were recorded with a '57 on snare and/or guitar amp. Everyone should have a few.
That said, it would NOT be my first choice for a choir either. If I were on a low budget. I'd probably use a decent portable recorder with internal mics. The Sony PCM D50 comes to mind. The onboard mics are also per-positioned to avoid phase issues.
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Old September 7th, 2015, 12:47 PM   #77
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Thanks everyone. Amazingly, your advice has worked - the client has hired an audio engineer. I explained that I had been discussing this with a multitude of audio engineers and explained that you felt this would be a step too far. I said my audio will likely be OK, but she would be much better served by an audio engineer.

I'm really pleased in a way, but also quite embarrassed to have asked you a thousand questions all weekend. I am really thankful to everyone for your advice and I have learnt a lot from this experience. My knowledge of microphones and pick up patterns has vastly improved and this is definitely an area that I find to be most interesting. I can't thank everyone enough for your time, and would like to apologise if you now see your posts as a waste of time - it hasn't been at all (for me). I think I have learned a lot.

That said, one final question: Will I be able to sync the audio with Plural Eyes or should I buy a clapboard?

Thanks everyone!!!
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Old September 7th, 2015, 01:04 PM   #78
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Your doing a multi cam shoot and recording external audio without jamming time code. I would not do it without my slate. Don't rely on software alone and the slate marks will help plural eyes and YOU to check for sync.

Good luck Craig, the guys here are very generous with sharing their knowledge. I am sure no one feels rejected, thats not what this is about. I am glad your going to get the help you need to make this a positive learning experience.

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Old September 7th, 2015, 01:08 PM   #79
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Buy a clapperboard app for your phone or i-pad if you have one.

Good to hear they took advice and the audio will be sorted by someone else.
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Old September 7th, 2015, 01:20 PM   #80
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Digges View Post
Your doing a multi cam shoot and recording external audio without jamming time code. I would not do it without my slate. Don't rely on software alone and the slate marks will help plural eyes and YOU to check for sync.

Good luck Craig, the guys here are very generous with sharing their knowledge. I am sure no one feels rejected, thats not what this is about. I am glad your going to get the help you need to make this a positive learning experience.

Steve
Thanks Steve. I've never used a slate before, but I am sure it's as simple as it sounds when I've watched videos about it on YouTube.

My understanding is that you position the slate in front of your main camera, with all of the details of in this shoot, the song you are recording and the camera that you're looking at. Then when you slap the clapper down, the other two-three cameras for this shoot will know that the clapper happened at that moment.

As I'll be shooting DSLR, I'll likely stop the recordings after each song. That way, each song has its own file.

Sound like the right setup?

Thanks Steve. I am very excited to shoot in the cathedral, and if the audio engineer can work wonders and make a good-sounding recording, then I'll be doing everything I can to get some great shots.

Following the discussions here, my plans for cameras are as follows:

a) GoPro with clamp (just bought) for the stand in front of the conductor
b) A camera close to front and centre (likely the GH4), shooting 4K for pans and punch ins in post.
c) A GH3 on a slider on the floor, facing up towards the choir and exposing the ceiling with a wide.
d) An AX100 in 4K from a side angle, left as a static for the same reasons as the GH4.

Using 2 4K streams, and getting as many interesting shots as I can with my slider could create an interesting visual.

Then I'm also hoping to get some great venue shots, both of the interior and exterior, where I may be able to fade away to different cutaway shots. Whatever I can basically to make this a great film.

The two songs are as follows:

If ye love me - Tallis (2 mins 5 seconds)
Christus factus est - Bruckner (6 mins 7 seconds)

I'll be looking up the meaning behind these songs, so that I can hopefully pair some other visuals to the songs themselves to tell the story (presuming there is one) within the cathedral itself.

I'll be sure to post the video once it's finished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Nattrass View Post
Buy a clapperboard app for your phone or i-pad if you have one.

Good to hear they took advice and the audio will be sorted by someone else.
Thanks Gary, do you find these work as quickly as a plastic clapperboard?

Thanks again for all of the advice...
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Old September 7th, 2015, 01:41 PM   #81
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Just stand in a spot where all camera's are about the same distance from you, or ask someone to do it for you while you monitor your camera's and ask them to clap their hands loud before they start to play and right after they stop, I don't see why you should buy a clapperboard really because it's only 2 songs, the clapping sound will provide you with a peak in the audio recording if all else is quite at that moment and just use that to sync up all audio, even manually that should not take more then 5 minutes for all camera's and soundsources. It's important to clap after the performance as well to see if there are any speed differences between the audio recording and the recording from your camera.
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Old September 7th, 2015, 01:49 PM   #82
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

I sync a lot of audio without P-eyes. I have both I-pad clappers and my old fashioned wooden slate you can fill in with a marker. And of course the hand clap.

I always go back to the wooden slate. Clapped twice. You can't beat those two thin marks on your track. I-pads are not loud enough. I put the name of the shoot on it and blow off all of the details.

I don't clap it myself. I look for someone on set with a gregarious personality and ask them to help me with it. Some people get a big kick out of it because it makes them feel "hollywood".

Steve
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Old September 7th, 2015, 02:32 PM   #83
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Thanks for the tips, Noa and Steve! Appreciate it! :)

We'll see how this goes! I'll be sure to post the video once it's done!! I'll be waiting for the mix first... I might even ask the audio engineer if he'd be interested in editing the audio with me... I doubt it mind, but it would be a great learning experience.

Craig
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Old September 7th, 2015, 02:46 PM   #84
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

You definitely did the right thing, it's so easy to mess up. Not sure if you have one, but a go pro, mounted on a sound boom can get you some amazing shots by getting a camera very high up, which always looks good in these buildings. Taping it vertically to a mic stand or lighting stand can give you some lovely stuff as filler/beauty shots.

One thing comes to mind, in that sometimes the choir master/mistress of amateur groups can be very demanding, so expect quite a few takes till they are happy. Identifying the takes with your clapper will be very handy. I actually doubt you'll have much trouble with sync, as small slips aren't noticed, as the multiple people all singing slightly different mean it's nowhere near as bad as a soloist.

I'd also make friends with the person in charge, because some areas will be out of bounds, so finding out their important rules is very important. Oddly, I've had much more leeway in Catholic churches and cathedrals - I asked one priest if it would be ok to push a flightcase across one open space that had floor 'tombs' - he smiled and said they were all dead, so wouldn't mind! In a CofE church I was banned from going behind one screen, where I hoped to set up some kit unseen. Never assume in these places, as it can easily offend.

Subbing the audio out was probably the best move you could make!

Don't forget the cell phone interrogation before you start!
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Old September 7th, 2015, 03:17 PM   #85
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig McKenna View Post
Thanks everyone. Amazingly, your advice has worked - the client has hired an audio engineer.
Whew! Lucky you, that takes a lot off your plate, and lets you concentrate on your core competency.

That said, if you want to record music this little adventure got you started climbing some of those learning curves. Just knowing where to start is often half the battle.

Whether or not you decide to continue with the music end, good luck with your shoot. Let us know what you, and your audio person, think of the acoustics in that massive round building. And if you can, post a link to the finished video. I'd love to hear/see it.
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Old September 7th, 2015, 05:18 PM   #86
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

I had to resolve a whole concert with no sync and no guide track when the camera operator didn't notice that the audio feed had become disconnected. I synced this video to the separate master audio recording by using the "L" in "Jerusalem" at 0:59 and the tongue of one of the altos.

https://vimeo.com/album/2482420/video/71927519
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Old September 7th, 2015, 05:38 PM   #87
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson View Post
You definitely did the right thing, it's so easy to mess up. Not sure if you have one, but a go pro, mounted on a sound boom can get you some amazing shots by getting a camera very high up, which always looks good in these buildings. Taping it vertically to a mic stand or lighting stand can give you some lovely stuff as filler/beauty shots.

One thing comes to mind, in that sometimes the choir master/mistress of amateur groups can be very demanding, so expect quite a few takes till they are happy. Identifying the takes with your clapper will be very handy. I actually doubt you'll have much trouble with sync, as small slips aren't noticed, as the multiple people all singing slightly different mean it's nowhere near as bad as a soloist.

I'd also make friends with the person in charge, because some areas will be out of bounds, so finding out their important rules is very important. Oddly, I've had much more leeway in Catholic churches and cathedrals - I asked one priest if it would be ok to push a flightcase across one open space that had floor 'tombs' - he smiled and said they were all dead, so wouldn't mind! In a CofE church I was banned from going behind one screen, where I hoped to set up some kit unseen. Never assume in these places, as it can easily offend.

Subbing the audio out was probably the best move you could make!

Don't forget the cell phone interrogation before you start!
Thanks Paul. I realised quite early in this thread that I was way out of my depth, which is slightly frustrating and exciting at the same time, as I really hoped that I'd be able to learn how to capture decent sound in a cathedral within a week's worth of research and a good piece of equipment. Evidently not though, but I will look to improve vastly in this area in the future.

I'm going to put my GoPro on the lighting stand. I'd love another GoPro to put on a boom pole, but I think I'll have to let that one slide for this shoot. I'm really pleased that I don't have to invest a tonne of money to be honest too, as I never like money to restrict what is possible with an event recording. To be a pro is to have the right equipment for the job, but it just so happens that on this shoot, I had no idea what the right equipment was! :)

Thanks Paul, great tip! I have bought a slate version of a clapboard. I figure it's worth the extra 30 if Steve uses his all the time, and the cheaper boards aren't as robust to take the clap (or at least from very brief research). Would anyone advise writing on each board for each different take or not?

Definitely. I'll be sure that I am being respectful!

Hahaha does cell phone interrogation mean to tell everyone to turn off their phones?!

I'm really pleased that the audio is being subbed out, and excited that I can concentrate on the video now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
Whew! Lucky you, that takes a lot off your plate, and lets you concentrate on your core competency.

That said, if you want to record music this little adventure got you started climbing some of those learning curves. Just knowing where to start is often half the battle.

Whether or not you decide to continue with the music end, good luck with your shoot. Let us know what you, and your audio person, think of the acoustics in that massive round building. And if you can, post a link to the finished video. I'd love to hear/see it.
Definitely, lucky me!

Thanks, Bruce. Really helpful. I am really pleased that everyone here was able to help me, and you have been endlessly helpful.

I'll definitely continue to pursue the music end... but I guess it largely depends on the opportunities that lay ahead for me...

I'll definitely be sure to post when I return from the shoot on Thursday, and hopefully I'll have an ETA on the arrival of the audio. From there, I'll try to get the video finished for everyone's perusal here. I've been given permission to use it to promote my own services too, where I'll give credit to the choir, conductor and audio engineer.

I can't wait to see the finished film too! Thanks a lot for your help again... I can't thank you and everyone else enough!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Crowley View Post
I had to resolve a whole concert with no sync and no guide track when the camera operator didn't notice that the audio feed had become disconnected. I synced this video to the separate master audio recording by using the "L" in "Jerusalem" at 0:59 and the tongue of one of the altos.

https://vimeo.com/album/2482420/video/71927519
Cannot tell a thing! Great job!
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Old September 7th, 2015, 09:48 PM   #88
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Hi Craig - congratulations on getting them to find someone.

Anyhow, just want to wish you the best of luck with this and please please please don't give up on audio - I think it's actually more fun than the video part. Good gear is quite expensive BUT you can use it for decades unlike the cameras.

Please post a link to the result if you can - by now I think we'd all like to actually see/hear the result.

(By the way re the idea of a higher fixed camera angle I was thinking of mounting it on a tall tripod or even on a ladder (or a tall light stand.) Since it will be locked off you don't have to stand behind it except to set it up.)

Best
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Old September 7th, 2015, 10:45 PM   #89
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

I have been following Craig's work in the wedding/event forum. He has already displayed much talent for artistic video acquisition. He knows how to shoot quite well. Far beyond his honest request for audio support going into this difficult record. Now that he has proper audio support I am sure his finished film will please the client and may surprise many of you. It is always refreshing when a rookie asks legitimate questions and is responsive to the support he gets in a thoughtful way. I don't think he is here to cry help once, not check back in, and go away, like so many others do. He is genuinely trying to learn from the inquiries he makes.

Kind Regards,

Steve
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Old September 8th, 2015, 01:00 AM   #90
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

+1 on everything you said - so many people start a thread and then vanish into thin air.
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