Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

[Bruce Watson]

Originally Posted by Craig McKenna

I guess my main question is, do I require buying three mic stands and mics in order to get the best audio possible? The lady suggested using one pointing left, one pointing centre and one off to the right.

Clearly she doesn't know anything about recording audio. And it's not her job to know, that's why she's hiring it out.

Resist, mightily, the urge to make this complicated. Resist the urge to plunge into stereo, or far worse, 5.1+ multichannel. You've got to crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run. And you've more than got your hands full with just the video. You really should be doing this with a full time audio recordist. Since you haven't got one, keep it extremely simple. Or your video will suffer. Been there, done that, wasn't pretty. Just sayin'.

[Dave Blackhurst]

It's been a LONG time since I did live audio, I'll defer specific mic suggestions to the others here (or your buddy) with what a current good choice would be...

I'd guess you can find a two mic mount for X/Y, but a 3 might be a special item you'd have to cobble up, several of us on DVi have custom cobbled 3+ camera heads...

FWIW, two songs is a lot less stressing than a whole CD "set", so you may well be able to pull this off brilliantly! Capture will be tricky, but there's a fair amount of "post" magic possible if your initial tracks are decent.

This may sound rather silly, but in the end, do your best to find the sweet spot in the cathedral (walk the room, sit where it feels "right"), put your best recorder/ambient mic setup at that spot (double check how it sounds with a set of headphones), you might never need the "close mics"... though you should have them for post. Most modern venues are designed for a good "house" audio experience, and since you won't be fighting crowd noise, it may be possible to get something surprisingly decent for demo purposes from a well placed recorder out in the seats!

[Dave Blackhurst]

@Bruce -
What about setting two of the Sankens in an X/Y pattern optimized to the width/arc of the choir? To get a bit of "stereo" (yeah, phase cancellation and all them additional headaches, but...)? I see he's got 3 of them... maybe one "mono", two in an X/Y and cross fingers, eyes, and other appropriate appendages? I'm presuming they are small since they are lavs, so... one stand...

If you think they might work in that configuration, it could cover the dry side of the equation, add a
house/ambient and sync it in post, might pull off a decent 5.1 "mix" with minimal equipment? All dependent on editing chops, of course!

[Craig McKenna]

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

OK, two songs, 10 minutes finished product... they are doing a "demo tape"... with little or no clue, but that's OK... it happens, been there, have a t-shirt collection...

Keep in mind that for 10 minutes of "finished" product you could be looking at a couple HOURS of retakes, especially if this is being shot live. Unlike a wedding or event video where you get one pass, and take what you get... a demo tape needs to have polish, no flaws, it's got to be good. If the talent is good enough, it could be almost a one pass affair, run multiple cameras/angles and cross your fingers - 4K will give you some advantages (pan/crop in post for wide/close), but think out what angles you want - I'd say at LEAST three camera positions, I'd probably have 3-5 and a manned camera, so you're on the right track! Keep the cameras rolling, take as many "takes" as needed - you may even be able to do some editing magic in post from different takes!

Thanks Dave... I think they're a very talented bunch, as I've heard the youth choir there before and they were pretty flawless... so I am guessing these will be very good, unless their conductor thinks otherwise! Either way, I will definitely be wearing my headphones throughout and checking different audio sources.

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

Back to audio...
An X/Y setup should be OK depending on the width and arc of the choir (parabolic again), if the room is dark, you might be able to place fairly close behind and above the conductor and get away with it, with minimal visual impact - otherwise lower and in front of her may work - experimentation and time are your friends here. "Room/ambient" can probably come from that Zoom - find a place a bit further back - walk the room and look for a "sweet spot" during the practice - there will be good "spots", bad spots, horrible spots, and likely a few really insanely great spots (I'm presuming from the photo that the cathedral was engineered for acoustical quality, as are many modern venues). Mix the ambient in in post - a good pair of cans in post may be as critical, or more than, the mics...

Sounds like a great option for a back up!!! Thanks!

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

First you've got to capture it, but the mix is also going to be interesting - I'm guessing they will want a 5.1 mix... whether they even know what that is or not, you'll be after a "surround sound" mix in the final product to best show the talent, and you want to mix to make it sound like the viewer is IN that room with all the sonorous beauty of the echo/reverb! The joyous part is you have to have a fairly "dry" source from close in to the choir... and the ambient to mix to taste in post!

Since you've got a friend in audio, I should think you'll be able to "borrow" what you need (most audio guys are good that way <wink>) rather than rent.

There's no chance that I'm offering a 5.1 mix... my audio skills are developing, and I am just looking to get good quality sound that people can enjoy listening to whilst watching the performance... I wouldn't know where to begin with surround sound?! That said, I'll have a read and try to educate myself.

Unfortunately, the friend isn't into audio as much as he's the owner of a large production company that does commercial, event and wedding videography... I don't think he's a wizard of audio as such, but definitely knowledgeable enough to produce good films. I will ask him, but I'm guessing that an audio forum contains people who are more knowledgeable...

Originally Posted by Bruce Watson

Oy. Audio, especially stereo, is considerably more difficult that video, including multi-camera video.

This particular space looks quite challenging. None of the "usual suspects" when it comes to reflections. If it behaves like some of the capital rotundas I've been in, it could just be a nightmare from a sound recording standpoint. I'd have to be there to know.

Since you are clearly in over your head and want some help, here's what I suggest. I'd just try to avoid any thoughts of stereo -- you aren't charging them much you say, so don't give them much. Go with mono sound. Much easier.

Then I'd gaff tape one of your lav mics (the COS-11D is an omni, just what you need) onto the baby pin on your light stand, point the capsule down, about 45 degrees relative to the riser, and raise it off the deck somewhere around 3.0 m (your Manfrotto stand maxes out around 3.6m, so somewhat less than full extension should get you there). Position it so that it's at the focal point of the curve that the group makes (gather around the mic boys and girls), or a little closer in (so that all the voices are more or less equal-distant from the mic). The mic should now be pointing about midway between the two lines of singers, but it's an omni so the exact orientation isn't really all that critical.

Genius. Thanks! I think that will definitely be something that I consider doing... do you gaff tape the recorder to the stand as well? As I don't think the leads from my SANKENs will reach the ground?

Originally Posted by Bruce Watson

Then, record the rehearsal, just like you would record a groom (peaks around -12dBfs, yes?) Every time they take a break, you listen to what you just recorded (use your headphones) and decide how to adjust your setup. How? What you're listening for is:

1) Does the group give you a balanced sound, and can you hear all the various voices. In particular, can you hear the basses and the sopranos without one being a lot louder than the other? The cure for this is often rearranging the group to put the weakest sounding members closer to the mic. But the conductor usually takes care of this kind of balancing. This shouldn't really be a problem for you, but you have to check it anyway because you're the guy doing the recording.

2) Do you hear a good balance between the direct sound of the singers and the reflections from the room? This is classic signal-to-noise ratio. If you get too much noise (room) then you need to get closer to your signal. So lower the mic, or push it into the group a little more, etc. You may well find that you want the mic lower, like maybe just 2.0 m -- just to control the long reverb tail you say this room has. If you're going to make a mistake here, make it in favor of a dryer (less reverb) sound. Better to be too close than too far away, especially in this building.

There ya go. That's it. Keep it simple. Really simple. One mic. One stand. One mic position.

Thank you! The audio consideration from weddings entails having different back ups, so I will use this solution, the recorder in a sweet spot solution and I'm also hoping to do an X Y recording pattern as well, if others suggest that this may be the way forward?

If so, I am considering getting two Shure SM81-LC mics and positioning them in an X Y configuration? That way, I'll have three different options of sound for the edit and thus, three times more likely to be happy in the edit?

Originally Posted by Bruce Watson

And yes I'm well aware that the mic stand will be in your shot. But there's only the one stand, and it's tall and very thin. And... it's the only choice you have given the time available and the equipment available. So put it up where you need it without asking, and if anyone complains tell them (in the nicest most diplomatic way of course) that it's either this or sucky audio (which has the amazing advantage of being the truth).

This made me laugh! :)

Originally Posted by Bruce Watson

Then, shoot around the stand. This is one reason to keep the mic above their heads -- it keeps the mic out of frame for your video, and that's a good thing for the video.

Finally, you may have to apply a little post processing to the audio. The COS-11D has a significant high frequency rise because it's designed to be used under clothing. So you may need to apply a little of the opposite curve via a parametric EQ if the high end sounds too bright or harsh. Small price to pay for avoiding the purchase of a mic that's more appropriate for this duty, yes?

There ya go. Good luck with it, and have fun.

Sounds like a great solution! Thank you!!! Would you recommend any audio software to work alongside FCPX? Or will FCPX be able to add in a little of the opposite curve?

Originally Posted by Bruce Watson

Clearly she doesn't know anything about recording audio. And it's not her job to know, that's why she's hiring it out.

Resist, mightily, the urge to make this complicated. Resist the urge to plunge into stereo, or far worse, 5.1+ multichannel. You've got to crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run. And you've more than got your hands full with just the video. You really should be doing this with a full time audio recordist. Since you haven't got one, keep it extremely simple. Or your video will suffer. Been there, done that, wasn't pretty. Just sayin'.

Thanks Bruce! I'll keep that in mind throughout! I dislike being pushed beyond the outer limits (as I'm guessing anyone does), so I'm not looking for anything that's going to be drastically complicated... I'm guessing I can do a decent job of this, but I have also explained my experience to the client.

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

It's been a LONG time since I did live audio, I'll defer specific mic suggestions to the others here (or your buddy) with what a current good choice would be...

I'd guess you can find a two mic mount for X/Y, but a 3 might be a special item you'd have to cobble up, several of us on DVi have custom cobbled 3+ camera heads...

FWIW, two songs is a lot less stressing than a whole CD "set", so you may well be able to pull this off brilliantly! Capture will be tricky, but there's a fair amount of "post" magic possible if your initial tracks are decent.

This may sound rather silly, but in the end, do your best to find the sweet spot in the cathedral (walk the room, sit where it feels "right"), put your best recorder/ambient mic setup at that spot (double check how it sounds with a set of headphones), you might never need the "close mics"... though you should have them for post. Most modern venues are designed for a good "house" audio experience, and since you won't be fighting crowd noise, it may be possible to get something surprisingly decent for demo purposes from a well placed recorder out in the seats!

Thanks very much! Seriously, I was hoping for a reply by tomorrow evening, but you have all overwhelmed me with help. I really appreciate it!

[Jim Andrada]

Just a thought - any possibility of a higher fixed camera position and a lower mic stand close to the conductor (or further back if it sounds good - the further back it is the greater the odds it will be out of view of a higher camera, Or it will just look lower and therefore less intrusive.) Whenever I have a chance I tend to put the main camera in the balcony and a single M-S or X-Y mic set behind the conductor. This way with the mics lower than the camera the mics don't get in the way of the performers' faces and are mostly rather unnoticeable as they're behind the conductor. Of course I don't usually record in a cathedral either

I like mics a bit higher than the group, but on the other hand the normal audience in a setting like this is sitting a bit below the performers and if it sounds good to the audience it might sound good to the mics. Worth a try.

I've sometimes had good luck with mics back in the audience in a large hall, but the reverberation characteristics of this space would worry me so I'd start close to the conductor and move back and listen.

The conductor will balance the group so it sounds right to him/her so I wouldn't worry too much about not hearing the folks on the end

[Richard Crowley]

Yes, we typically like to position choir microphones significantly ABOVE the singers heads. However in such a "wet" space you may be able to get away with something much lower-profile. Perhaps even a single-point stereo mic(s) just ahead of the conductor's music stand, etc.

Oh, and a GoPro on the conductor attached to the her music stand (or to that mic stand just in front of her) makes an exciting angle for insert shots. Especially aimed up to see that ceiling.

For example....

YouTube (Short URL)

[Jon Fairhurst]

M+S and X-Y are the safest approaches, as they're co-incident. You won't have to worry about phasing issues that come about from spaced mics. M+S is the safer of the two, as you can go mono and add the amount of stereo effect that you prefer in post. With X-Y, you get what you get.

The main thing isn't technical at all. It's to play down expectations. Way down. That way, if the sound is poor, nobody will complain. If it happens to sound great, you're a hero. Just make sure to monitor things and set the gain well. If there's no audio or the audio clips, it doesn't matter how good and well-placed your mics were.

Best of luck!

[Craig McKenna]

Originally Posted by Jim Andrada

Just a thought - any possibility of a higher fixed camera position and a lower mic stand close to the conductor (or further back if it sounds good - the further back it is the greater the odds it will be out of view of a higher camera, Or it will just look lower and therefore less intrusive.) Whenever I have a chance I tend to put the main camera in the balcony and a single M-S or X-Y mic set behind the conductor. This way with the mics lower than the camera the mics don't get in the way of the performers' faces and are mostly rather unnoticeable as they're behind the conductor. Of course I don't usually record in a cathedral either

I like mics a bit higher than the group, but on the other hand the normal audience in a setting like this is sitting a bit below the performers and if it sounds good to the audience it might sound good to the mics. Worth a try.

I've sometimes had good luck with mics back in the audience in a large hall, but the reverberation characteristics of this space would worry me so I'd start close to the conductor and move back and listen.

The conductor will balance the group so it sounds right to him/her so I wouldn't worry too much about not hearing the folks on the end

I don't believe that there is a higher fixed point, unfortunately. The Met Cathedral in Liverpool is a very spacious ad generally flat surface throughout. The only steps that I've seen lead up to the very top of the building, and there's no way I'm going up 100m or so! :)

I'm fascinated by the MS way of doing this, and have watched the following YouTube video, which I assume shows how to do it?

How to do M-S (Mid-Side) Microphone Recording Technique | Box Studio Presents - YouTube

Despite my interest, it looks like a complicated method for a first time recording by the audio engineer in question, who has very little understanding of sound beyond recording dialogue (me).

I've found a mic that does this on its own: The Pearl MS 8CL... but I don't think I could afford such a microphone.

Thanks for your considerations! If possible, could you disclose a recommendation for two mics that you would purchase to do the MS recording?

Originally Posted by Richard Crowley

Yes, we typically like to position choir microphones significantly ABOVE the singers heads. However in such a "wet" space you may be able to get away with something much lower-profile. Perhaps even a single-point stereo mic(s) just ahead of the conductor's music stand, etc.

Oh, and a GoPro on the conductor attached to the her music stand (or to that mic stand just in front of her) makes an exciting angle for insert shots. Especially aimed up to see that ceiling.

For example....

https://youtu.be/USONn44CcsA

Could you recommend a single-point stereo mic?

The GoPro idea is unreal! I love it! I think that'll be a great angle to use! I will have a look to see if I can find a clamp to attach to the conductor's stand! Thanks!!

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

M+S and X-Y are the safest approaches, as they're co-incident. You won't have to worry about phasing issues that come about from spaced mics. M+S is the safer of the two, as you can go mono and add the amount of stereo effect that you prefer in post. With X-Y, you get what you get.

The main thing isn't technical at all. It's to play down expectations. Way down. That way, if the sound is poor, nobody will complain. If it happens to sound great, you're a hero. Just make sure to monitor things and set the gain well. If there's no audio or the audio clips, it doesn't matter how good and well-placed your mics were.

Best of luck!

OK. My main issue now is that I don't have anywhere to go to buy these microphones. I need to order them online today or tomorrow at the very latest. Preferrably today, as I would like to experiment with them before going to the rehearsal (should it happen).

Can anyone recommend stands, mics, etc. that you would go for that would equate to under $1000? Again, I'm looking to buy quality products, as I have with the mics that I have purchased already (11Ds and 416p).

Thanks everyone. I'll continue to learn and read as much as possible over the next few hours!

[Craig McKenna]

Also, as my Sennheiser 416p is a hypercardioid microphone, does that mean that the pick up would be too narrow for the choir that I'm shooting? And thus, should I buy a figure 8 mic to go along with a new cardioid mic?

Thanks again, everyone!

[Bruce Watson]

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

@Bruce -
What about setting two of the Sankens in an X/Y pattern optimized to the width/arc of the choir?

XY requires cardioid mics. That's because it has to make the stereo image out of loudness variations only, as coincident pairs have no time differences by definition. The Cos-11Ds are omnis, so both mics would record everything the same -- no loudness differences. XY with omnis doesn't give you a stereo image; you get instead two nearly identical copies of the same mono image.

It's issues like this that have me urging the OP to go mono. He doesn't have time to learn all the ins and outs of stereo. And if this thing is going to to be used for web content, most of the devices used to view it are mono anyway (smartphones, tablets, etc.).

[Rick Reineke]

"Sennheiser 416p , does that mean that the pick up would be too narrow for the choir "
- Yes.. and reverb would be a freak'n nightmare. An inherent negative characteristic of interference tube mics in 'live' spaces.
" should I buy a figure 8 mic to go along with a new cardioid mic?"
- Only if you wish to go the M/S route.. NOT recommended for the inexperienced.

[Craig McKenna]

Originally Posted by Bruce Watson

XY requires cardioid mics. That's because it has to make the stereo image out of loudness variations only, as coincident pairs have no time differences by definition. The Cos-11Ds are omnis, so both mics would record everything the same -- no loudness differences. XY with omnis doesn't give you a stereo image; you get instead two nearly identical copies of the same mono image.

It's issues like this that have me urging the OP to go mono. He doesn't have time to learn all the ins and outs of stereo. And if this thing is going to to be used for web content, most of the devices used to view it are mono anyway (smartphones, tablets, etc.).

Totally understand your recommendations, Bruce. If I were to purchase a mic to do mono better than the SANKEN COS 11D, what would you suggest?

Going in with an extremely tiny mic leaves me a bit open to criticism, and I also require the mics to stay in place in a position where I cannot see them, so I'd much prefer being able to see the mic pointing towards the back of the choir with my eyes from any position, and monitoring with my headphones...

Whilst I realise there's a complicated aspect of stereo, would you definitely reject the idea of using MS setup?

My friend, who I mentioned earlier, has suggested two cardioid microphones at either side (both left and right), as well as one above the choir. He's filmed there before, a couple of years ago, and this was the setup he chose then. I don't think he has the film to hand to show me though.

I'd prefer to use a simpler setup than this, and even have an MS setup, and a mono setup too... but I understand that I lack time. I've watched a tonne of videos now, but obviously still have no experience.

[Craig McKenna]

Originally Posted by Rick Reineke

"Sennheiser 416p , does that mean that the pick up would be too narrow for the choir "
- Yes.. and reverb would be a freak'n nightmare. An inherent negative characteristic of interference tube mics in 'live' spaces.
" should I buy a figure 8 mic to go along with a new cardioid mic?"
- Only if you wish to go the M/S route.. NOT recommended for the inexperienced.

Thanks Rick. MS pattern out of the window then, would you also consider to shoot mono as suggested by Bruce? And if so, which mic should I purchase for this event? If better quality equals better audio, I'd be willing to spend up to $1000, as I am actually growing to love audio as a new interest, and would like to become more knowledgeable and dedicate more time to the skill of capturing great audio in a variety of spaces.

[Bruce Watson]

Originally Posted by Craig McKenna

...do you gaff tape the recorder to the stand as well? As I don't think the leads from my SANKENs will reach the ground?

If you don't mind a recorder bulging out from the stand about head high in your shot, I guess I'm OK with it too. Otherwise you might want to find a way to cable it so the recorder is somewhere out of your shot, like on the ground.

How are you going to monitor the audio? Not monitoring the audio is the basic equivalent of using the camera without looking at the viewfinder. You wouldn't do that, would you?

Originally Posted by Craig McKenna

The audio consideration from weddings entails having different back ups, so I will use this solution, the recorder in a sweet spot solution and I'm also hoping to do an X Y recording pattern as well, if others suggest that this may be the way forward?

If so, I am considering getting two Shure SM81-LC mics and positioning them in an X Y configuration? That way, I'll have three different options of sound for the edit and thus, three times more likely to be happy in the edit?

I'm merely an adviser, you can of course do anything you want. My advice remains to keep it simple.

XY is seldom the answer in a decent acoustical space, because it seldom does a good job rendering that space. The use of cards effects placement, often cardioid arrays like XY and ORTF end up farther back than omni arrays. And you also have to check on balance because of the fall off due to the cardioid polar patterns (depends on your mic placement and the ensemble's staging). Then there's the low end roll off from cards which may have you doing some more EQ in post. I could go on, but I'm just showing you the tip of the stereo iceberg here.

However, if you do plan on continuing down this path, I would point you toward a stereo pair of Shure KSM141. These sound really quite good, and will be useful to you after this initial session, and at this initial session you can use them in omni for an AB pair if you really and truly have to go stereo. Which I don't recommend.

But if you do decide you just absolutely have to go stereo, I still suggest using one of your COS-11ds for a mono recording also as I described earlier. Because I'm fairly certain the mono recording will save your bacon. Which is the purpose of any backup, yes?

[Craig McKenna]

Originally Posted by Bruce Watson

If you don't mind a recorder bulging out from the stand about head high in your shot, I guess I'm OK with it too. Otherwise you might want to find a way to cable it so the recorder is somewhere out of your shot, like on the ground.

How are you going to monitor the audio? Not monitoring the audio is the basic equivalent of using the camera without looking at the viewfinder. You wouldn't do that, would you?

Nope. :) I will monitor the audio with closed back headphones. I have a pair of AKGs that are pretty decent.

Originally Posted by Bruce Watson

I'm merely an adviser, you can of course do anything you want. My advice remains to keep it simple.

XY is seldom the answer in a decent acoustical space, because it seldom does a good job rendering that space. The use of cards effects placement, often cardioid arrays like XY and ORTF end up farther back than omni arrays. And you also have to check on balance because of the fall off due to the cardioid polar patterns (depends on your mic placement and the ensemble's staging). Then there's the low end roll off from cards which may have you doing some more EQ in post. I could go on, but I'm just showing you the tip of the stereo iceberg here.

However, if you do plan on continuing down this path, I would point you toward a stereo pair of Shure KSM141. These sound really quite good, and will be useful to you after this initial session, and at this initial session you can use them in omni for an AB pair if you really and truly have to go stereo. Which I don't recommend.

But if you do decide you just absolutely have to go stereo, I still suggest using one of your COS-11ds for a mono recording also as I described earlier. Because I'm fairly certain the mono recording will save your bacon. Which is the purpose of any backup, yes?

Most definitely. Thanks! And if I would prefer to buy an omnidirectional mic to shoot only mono, as you suggest, which microphone would you advise me to go for then?

Thanks for the point towards the Shures, but the more you discuss the disadvantages of stereo and an amateur, I am coming round more and more to the mono recording and keeping things simple.

Thanks for taking the time to help me, Bruce. I really appreciate being able to be advised by someone who is a much more knowledgeable other. Thanks!!!

*EDIT* Having read more about the Shure mics, would you suggest buying one of those over the 11Ds, as they can also be configured as omni directional microphones? And I assume that with a large diaphragm, they will be much more competent at getting better audio.

*EDITX2* Unfortunately, the Shure KSM 141 is out of stock in the UK and supposedly discontinued. Did Shure replace this model with a different one? Thanks!