DV Info Net - Newmann U87

DV Info Net (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/)

- All Things Audio (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-things-audio/)

- - Newmann U87 (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-things-audio/533403-newmann-u87.html)

The U87 has long been the gold standard for studio recording. Recording with it is like removing pillows that covered your monitor speakers. It's resolution and clarity is phenomenal. That being said, can anyone explain why the U87 isn't used for live band performances? Or for capturing dialogue on a movie set?

Large Diaphragm Condenser (LDC) microphones are favored for studio use where you can control the position of the microphone, the subject and other sources around the studio.

Some of the major reasons LDC are not favorites for cine/video production include:

1) LDC don't have nearly the kind of directionality typically needed in film/video production, even in the studio, not to mention out in the field. AFAIK, there are no LDC hyper-cardioid or "shotgun" microphones. And those are the kinds of microphones you need for dialog pickup on a set in a studio or on location.

2) LCD off-axis frequency response is very often different than the on-axis performance. This can be used to advantage in controlled sound studio situations. But it plays havoc when trying to pick up moving subjects where the microphone is moving and turning relative to the sound-stage.

3) LDC are MUCH more sensitive to low-frequency (wind) noise. They are quite vulnerable and require extensive protection against wind noise, even indoors.

4) LDC are typically more sensitive to mechanical handling noise than SDC. So that makes them more difficult to use on a boom, etc.

5) LDC are larger than SDC (duh!) and that makes them more difficult to use on a boom while staying out of the shot. Especially if the LCD is not as sensitive as the typical SDC.

6) LDC (+wind protection) are typically heavier than SDC or shotgun (+wind protection) which makes them less suitable for use on a boom, especially a human-operated boom as we see mostly here in the 21st century. In our grandparent's era, when a microphone was as big as a football and weighed 10 lb, they used a big cart-mounted boom like J.L.Fisher, et.al. (See photo below)

They can sometimes be found in studio recordings of large ensembles, but because of their quirky characteristics, it takes longer to find exactly the right place for them (if any). It is so much easier to use a very flat and predictable SDC even for those applications.

Not clear what Mr. Kawamoto means by "live band performances"? If he means your typical rock band, then LDC are not nearly rugged enough for the kinds of abuse you see in a typical rock band performance. They are also MUCH more sensitive to precise placement angle, distance, etc. So the subject needs to work harder at staying in exactly the "sweet spot" of the microphone and not move around. That would rather cramp the style of most rockers I have seen. YMMV.

You DO see large-diameter microphones (typically dynamic not condenser) in rock bands for applications like micing low-frequency sources like the bass-guitar amp or the kick-drum. But those applications are stationary and not moving around. And they are VERY CLOSE miked, often taking advantage of the "proximity effect" to enhance the LF sounds. And a very expensive microphone like a Neumann U87 are just too much of a theft-magnet on a typical rock concert stage.

Excellent info Richard!

Richard has some excellent answers. That is why professional studios have many different microphones because different mics are designed for different purposes. BTW, LDCs are often used in recording situations of large ensembles. Again it depends on what kind of sound the engineer is after and what particular instrument is being recorded..

And just a bit of a nit-pick, the company name is "Neumann" with a "u" and is pronounced "NOY - mahn" as it is a German name.

Have fun!

Rob

The U87 also has a reputation for being fragile. Ideally, the wires are going to be super-fine, connected to something with more mass than an SDC. I don't know the truth of that, but, that's a big diaphragm in suspension, in an expensive mic - don't drop it!

Likewise, susceptibility to humidity; that's a thin big diaphragm... upon which water vapor can condense. You never want such a thing colder than the environment.

I'm just repeating what I've been told... but these characteristics would also argue against field use, in addition to Richard's excellent summary.

Sidenote to Richard and other followers of Portland trivia: at some point back in the mid/late 80s, I bought a used U87 for my then-employer from John Smith of Nu Shooz. Supposed to have been Valerie Day's vocal mic. I cut a lot of VO with that mic... it sounded great!

We used them on our Fischer booms when I was at ITV Tyne Tees TV in the UK 1980-1991.

They are great mic's but you get the best out of them when using high end mixing consoles, there are other mic's on the market that come pretty close and are more cost effective for the average user.

I tried my AKG C414 at one point, which has a hyper setting. Whilst it's one of my favorite mics of all time (which includes SM-57/58) and good on many, many instruments, it wasn't better then my usual SDCs, and to heavy for a H/H boom.

Excellent response Richard. You answered a lot of questions that I have had about large diaphragm condensers.

Warren Kawamoto - thank you for your post and starting this thread. And Richard for his super response and those who chimed in with more tidbits. Marco said it well. The devil is in the details.

I’m in the market for another mic and looking seriously at the AKG C414 model (don’t know which one yet) but don’t want anyone to reply on this part because I’ve been planning to start a thread on it (or one like it) later but this thread has helpful information. Every mic has it’s nuances.

Tagging onto Rob’s post, the AKG would be pronounced something like Ah-Ka-Gay.

Can’t have too many mics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Nantz (Post 1926674)

Can’t have too many mics.

There is an addiction group co-miserating over at:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remo...gear-slut.html

Richard -
Ha ha ha …. that was a really good, na, appropriate, link.

Have to wipe the tears in my eyes to make sure what I type is spelled correctly.

I see the word “wife” show up frequently. Same problem here.
Problem 1) Which mic to buy
Problem 2) How to “find” the money, or perhaps hide it.
Problem 3) How to explain it to wife why I need ANOTHER mic

Thank you everyone, you explained it well! And I have no idea how I spelled Neumann Newmann.....sorry! By live band performances, I meant a live concert performance like Barry White or Adele singing. I would have thought that if they sound terrific in the studio, they would also sound terrific live with the same mic.

Regarding using the same mic live as in the studio...

A studio is a controlled environment. A lot of money has usually been spent to make sure the acoustics are great. In addition, most of the time the final vocals on a record are not recorded at the same time as the music. It is usually recorded later as an overdub, all by itself. If it is recorded at the same time as the instruments then there are baffles used, or the singer is put in an actual isolation booth to keep the sound of the other instruments from leaking into the vocal track. So if you were to use a Neumann U87 live, for instance, you would end up with leakage of drums, guitars, horns, whatever into the vocal mic and it would not only not sound good, but would probably be prone to feedback in the system anyway with all that sound being picked up and fed through the monitors. Stage mics are typically designed with a narrow pickup pattern so you get mostly voice and try to keep the other stuff out of the mic.Once again, that's one of the reasons there are so many different microphones because they perform differently in different situations.

Of course there are exceptions to this. Frank Sinatra did most of his records singing live in the room with the band. But again that was done in a controlled studio situation. And he used different mics live than he did when recording "live" in the studio.